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RE: 'I've love to hear some explanation here'
Posted on: October 12, 2017 at 18:13:13 CT
JeffB MU
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Such as:
"What then becomes of inherent value and dignity? It would be an illusion. Objectively speaking, in a naturalist universe, we would have no more value than any other aspect of nature. The only “value” we would possess would be what others were willing to grant us in our few moments on this Earth."
GA Tiger: How convenient that you all "prove" something simply by defining it to suit yourself as if that settles it.
And more basically meaningless gobbledegook: "If God exists, and we have been created in his image and likeness, then we do possess unique value among created beings."
Christians assert that all men are created in the image and likeness of God... and God is Love. That because of this all men have an inherent value and dignity that is off the charts... regardless of outward appearances or abilities.
GA Tiger:I'd love to hear some explanation here so I may attain understanding. Like, what is a "naturalist universe"? And what are OTHER kinds of universes? How can we, who all look different, be created in one image, much less one that no one has ever seen or ever will see?
The two competing worldviews here would be:
the Christian one, where there is a God who created everything out of nothing. Unlike the other animals He breathed His Spirit into man... creating him in His image and likeness. He gave us rationality and free will... the ability to choose between right and wrong and the ability to know the difference.
the "naturalist universe" which is not created, it just happened to exist from all eternity... and it is every changing. We are all just random accidents of nature... natural processes are in force that formed us into the random collection of molecules that we call GAT or Jeff. Everything else in existence is also a random collection of molecules, all having gotten where they are through the assorted and various natural processes that do things like form planets or stars or rocks or snowflakes, and over time those natural processes resulted in random collections of molecules that formed into what we would call "life"... and then some of that life, through natural processes spawned more life... and then it mutated and morphed and these natural processes eventually made more and more intricate collections of molecules, eventually resulting in the life form we call human beings.
But if we are to step back from the whole picture we see that while some collections of molecules, like ruby perhaps, might be more "beautiful" than a random collection of molecules that we might call "dog poop", but in the grand scheme of things, that is nothing more than a subjective value judgement from our perspective. Both are just random collections of molecules at this particular point in time, and those molecules will be rearranged into some other random collection of molecules in the future such that some of the molecules in the dog poop have now become diamonds, and some of the molecules in the the ruby stone are now in molten rock in some volcano... and millions of years hence they all may be sucked into the sun or some black hole and rearranged into who knows what.
A little child might pick up a piece of sand on the beach and marvel at how sparkly it is, and bring it to her father who is quite unimpressed. It is no longer at an angle to sparkle and it's just a piece of sand like 10 bazillion other pieces of sand on that beach... and countless other beaches just like it. Does that piece of sand have some grand inherent worth? Certainly not to him.
For an atheist, the same could be true of human beings. What of some homeless drunk laying on the beach? Would that person have any inherent worth to an atheist? What if there are millions of them all over the world and the atheist thinks there are already way too many people in the world? If he is just one animal among many other animals, wouldn't it make more sense to kill him, rather than let him consume scarce resources that might allow endangered species to survive?
Bottom line is that for a Christian, all human beings have inherent worth and dignity beyond measure, regardless of outward appearances. From a "naturalist universe" perspective, in the words of the author, what real difference is there between the homeless bum and the pile of dog poop? They're both just random collections of molecules that someone might prefer was not around.
"What then becomes of inherent value and dignity? It would be an illusion. Objectively speaking, in a naturalist universe, we would have no more value than any other aspect of nature. The only “value” we would possess would be what others were willing to grant us in our few moments on this Earth."
GA Tiger: How convenient that you all "prove" something simply by defining it to suit yourself as if that settles it.
And more basically meaningless gobbledegook: "If God exists, and we have been created in his image and likeness, then we do possess unique value among created beings."
Christians assert that all men are created in the image and likeness of God... and God is Love. That because of this all men have an inherent value and dignity that is off the charts... regardless of outward appearances or abilities.
GA Tiger:I'd love to hear some explanation here so I may attain understanding. Like, what is a "naturalist universe"? And what are OTHER kinds of universes? How can we, who all look different, be created in one image, much less one that no one has ever seen or ever will see?
The two competing worldviews here would be:
the Christian one, where there is a God who created everything out of nothing. Unlike the other animals He breathed His Spirit into man... creating him in His image and likeness. He gave us rationality and free will... the ability to choose between right and wrong and the ability to know the difference.
the "naturalist universe" which is not created, it just happened to exist from all eternity... and it is every changing. We are all just random accidents of nature... natural processes are in force that formed us into the random collection of molecules that we call GAT or Jeff. Everything else in existence is also a random collection of molecules, all having gotten where they are through the assorted and various natural processes that do things like form planets or stars or rocks or snowflakes, and over time those natural processes resulted in random collections of molecules that formed into what we would call "life"... and then some of that life, through natural processes spawned more life... and then it mutated and morphed and these natural processes eventually made more and more intricate collections of molecules, eventually resulting in the life form we call human beings.
But if we are to step back from the whole picture we see that while some collections of molecules, like ruby perhaps, might be more "beautiful" than a random collection of molecules that we might call "dog poop", but in the grand scheme of things, that is nothing more than a subjective value judgement from our perspective. Both are just random collections of molecules at this particular point in time, and those molecules will be rearranged into some other random collection of molecules in the future such that some of the molecules in the dog poop have now become diamonds, and some of the molecules in the the ruby stone are now in molten rock in some volcano... and millions of years hence they all may be sucked into the sun or some black hole and rearranged into who knows what.
A little child might pick up a piece of sand on the beach and marvel at how sparkly it is, and bring it to her father who is quite unimpressed. It is no longer at an angle to sparkle and it's just a piece of sand like 10 bazillion other pieces of sand on that beach... and countless other beaches just like it. Does that piece of sand have some grand inherent worth? Certainly not to him.
For an atheist, the same could be true of human beings. What of some homeless drunk laying on the beach? Would that person have any inherent worth to an atheist? What if there are millions of them all over the world and the atheist thinks there are already way too many people in the world? If he is just one animal among many other animals, wouldn't it make more sense to kill him, rather than let him consume scarce resources that might allow endangered species to survive?
Bottom line is that for a Christian, all human beings have inherent worth and dignity beyond measure, regardless of outward appearances. From a "naturalist universe" perspective, in the words of the author, what real difference is there between the homeless bum and the pile of dog poop? They're both just random collections of molecules that someone might prefer was not around.
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MESSAGE THREAD
RE: They dont break down, they just all give the same answer - Butcher of Bakersfield STL - 10/13 03:27:06RE: 'I've love to hear some explanation here' - JeffB MU - 10/12 18:13:13