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I have to assume that you believe either that reason & faith

Posted on: December 21, 2019 at 10:26:36 CT
JeffB MU
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or antithetical, or that one cannot arrive at the belief that there is a God who created all things based upon reason and the facts available to us on a natural level.

We disagree on your presupposition. I agree with Plato (&/or Aristotle?) that we can reason that there must be a God. Unfortunately(?) we cannot get any further than that one very basic premise through reason alone. To go any further requires self-revelation from that God. Fortunately, He has done so for us.
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The nature of the universe. God or no god? - JeffB MU - 12/20 18:56:32
     lol (nm) - pickle MU - 12/21 08:09:37
          Your lack of ability &/or will to engage in a thoughtful, - JeffB MU - 12/21 11:00:38
     Arguments for the Existence of God... (Peter Kreeft) - JeffB MU - 12/20 21:06:26
          Let's look at the resurrection argument. How many - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 21:28:13
               Many current scholars believe that St. John did indeed - JeffB MU - 12/20 22:06:42
                    A lawyer? Who cares? There are also New Testament scholars - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 22:15:37
                         My point was that as a lawyer he felt that the evidence - JeffB MU - 12/20 22:16:47
                              And my point is a man who studied to be a preacher - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 22:31:18
                                   Do you know his name, or better yet have a link to his story - JeffB MU - 12/21 10:18:45
     IN THE BEGINNING THERE WAS A BIG BANG - tigerfans3 MU - 12/20 20:57:04
          No. The big bang was the beginning of our visible - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 21:33:36
          I believe you are wrong...we will all find out one way or - Logan BAMA - 12/20 21:03:54
     Is God not but of a variety of interpretations of the Energy - raskolnikov MU - 12/20 20:25:23
          that's utter horsecock. "god is energy"? so when "god" - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:50:15
          On what basis is the connection of a god and energy - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 20:38:24
               no, because all of the "proof" in the Bible wouldn't - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:56:24
                    Nm - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 21:08:48
                         there as many and diverse a field of gods as there are - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 21:30:19
                              There used to even be family Deities. Each family had their - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 21:32:00
                                   man needs gods to fill voids, as you know, matt. the only - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 21:35:06
     believe what you want - Ferg STL - 12/20 20:00:14
          Please expound. Do you believe that there is no God? - JeffB MU - 12/20 20:11:29
               I'm saying your post is based on your religious beliefs - Ferg STL - 12/20 21:03:25
                    What are your own beliefs? What are they based upon? - JeffB MU - 12/21 12:18:32
                    Evidence of God from Contemporary Science & Philosophy - JeffB MU - 12/20 21:08:45
                         so you post a link from a religious organization - Ferg STL - 12/20 21:17:24
               "believe there is no god" is like saying "believe there - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:41:37
                    A couple of points... 1. We can and should examine the - JeffB MU - 12/20 21:46:44
                         Logic and reason are nice. But most of the arguments - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 21:56:08
                              I don't have time to discuss, but am unclear about a - JeffB MU - 12/20 22:13:45
               What a convenient deflection and cop-out, since - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 20:15:26
                    Are we not and is the cosmos not defined by pulsing - raskolnikov MU - 12/20 20:27:21
                         so magically you translate energy to "god" and give i - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:45:37
                         I could just as well, and convincingly, said that my - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 20:33:18
                    He said that 'there is absolutely nothing in your post that - JeffB MU - 12/20 20:22:49
                         I may have misunderstood your point there.(nm) - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 20:27:21
                              ok, thanks for letting me know. (nm) - JeffB MU - 12/20 20:31:42
     RE: The nature of the universe. God or no god? - MOCO SON MU - 12/20 19:49:35
          you actually get it. I can at least respect that you accept - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 19:55:23
               I would say that faith is involved, but that it is in - JeffB MU - 12/20 20:17:31
                    Nm - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 20:36:13
                         Man can come to the conclusion through reason & philosophy - JeffB MU - 12/20 20:46:23
                              so it isn't faith now? lmfao (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:51:21
                                   The grace of faith is absolutely necessary. (nm) - JeffB MU - 12/20 21:09:50
                                        so...is it free will or does God give me the grace of - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 21:30:51
                                             It is not an either or proposition, but a both and one. We - JeffB MU - 12/21 10:21:02
                              Nm - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 20:47:50
                                   Not if our definition of the universe is all existence. - JeffB MU - 12/20 21:11:57
                                        That's the point. You assume there was an absolute - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 21:17:09
                                             and scientists who dispute the plausibility of those models - JeffB MU - 12/20 22:19:31
                                   no, if science ever shows that, the paradigm / myth will - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:51:57
                                        The Kalam Cosmological argument is so stupid. - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 21:02:01
                                             if a single one of them had a sliver of actual faith, they - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 21:02:52
                    that's rubbish. it's either faith or it's not jeff. is it - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:20:59
                         I think belief in God is something one can arrive at with - JeffB MU - 12/20 20:30:54
                              then why do you call it faith? (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:34:56
                                   All that we can know by reason is that 'there is a God': - JeffB MU - 12/20 20:49:01
                                        Jeff, Jesus or not there is no self-revelation, other - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 21:04:02
                                             You are making a presupposition there that is a false one - JeffB MU - 12/20 21:16:27
                                                  do you "believe" or "have faith" - you keep slipping (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 21:31:33
                                                       It is not an either or proposition, but a both/and one: - JeffB MU - 12/21 10:22:24
                                        who is "we"? (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:52:42
                                             Human beings... humanity. (nm) - JeffB MU - 12/21 11:01:12
                              You blew up any kind of argument by using the word "reason". - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 20:34:45
                                   I have to assume that you believe either that reason & faith - JeffB MU - 12/21 10:26:36
                    Ok, what is the reason. And how - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 20:20:08
               On the other hand, it seems that you judge my beliefs - JeffB MU - 12/20 20:14:08
                    your beliefs don't make you #hitty, the judging and - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:19:31
                         The beliefs are the CORE issue here. As you say, you are - JeffB MU - 12/21 10:57:38
          Do you realize that virtually all - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 19:53:55
               Everyone agrees that belief in God is based upon faith. But - DHighlander NWMSU - 12/20 20:00:09
                    lmfao. why is not believing in something an act of faith. - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:22:01
                    By chance or not we'll never know. Fact. So to - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 20:05:23
               Margarita #2? (nm) - Newcatbirdseat MU - 12/20 19:56:27
                    Nope. Decided to give it up for a beer and port. - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 19:59:20
               you're off the rails, that isn't faith and is utterly absurd - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 19:55:54
     RE: The nature of the universe. God or no god? - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 19:27:30
     That argument is a false dichotomy. - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 19:25:54
     I can believe there is a god. However, what - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 19:20:28
          'The Problem of Evil' is probably the strongest argument - JeffB MU - 12/20 20:08:44
               Nm - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 20:43:56
                    We all have beliefs. Unfortunately, some of those beliefs - JeffB MU - 12/21 11:09:34
               there isn't an argument against god. I don't need one. - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:39:26
                    This is a binary question. You must choose one or the other - JeffB MU - 12/21 11:30:22
          I think you're unaware what your words reflect. - Macgrantt MU - 12/20 20:06:40
               Ok. What do they reflect? Such a powerful force - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 20:11:53
                    GAT to not believe is then to conclude everything is random - Macgrantt MU - 12/20 20:21:42
                         false dichotomy and straw man - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:54:03
                         And to prove it has not been for eternity is - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 20:47:39
          How can one be angry at something you think doesnt exist? - Macgrantt MU - 12/20 19:54:52
               I don't see that I expressed anger, or disappointment, at - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 20:01:54
          So you believe you know what God should be. (nm) - Logan BAMA - 12/20 19:45:29
               No, since I could not possibly know what such a - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 19:51:10
                    Since you believe it's invented what you say is rational - Logan BAMA - 12/20 20:15:06
                         that isn't belief nor faith, that's history to you. You poi - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:47:16
                              I have faith because of what was written...as it was - Logan BAMA - 12/20 21:00:25
                                   no offense, but that's like saying you have faith that - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 21:03:45
                                        The words I read...strengthened my faith which I gained - Logan BAMA - 12/20 21:13:35
                                             you had no faith before words whether written or spoken - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 21:33:13
                                                  It is biblical that fathers teach their children. - Logan BAMA - 12/20 21:42:42
                                   that isn't faith, that's education (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 21:01:41
                                        So for someone who is a non-believer...you seem to - Logan BAMA - 12/20 21:26:47
                                             First, let's establish that your argument is essentiall - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 21:38:27
                                                  So...if I say I believe the bible is the word of god - Logan BAMA - 12/20 21:47:11
                    much more rational than the alternative, to be sure. And yet - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 19:54:35
               lol, is that what he said? (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 19:48:02
          Do you have children? - MNTIGER MU - 12/20 19:34:56
               by free will you mean, if I don't do X and Y and believe - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 19:44:30
                    RE: by free will you mean, if I don't do X and Y and believe - MNTIGER MU - 12/20 20:22:08
                         well, by all means, explain this "free" will lol (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 20:35:45
               RE: Do you have children? - GA Tiger MU - 12/20 19:40:36
                    RE: Do you have children? - MNTIGER MU - 12/20 20:20:57
                    YOU MUST SUFFER! - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 19:45:06
               Do we have free will? - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 19:38:35
          vengeful, flawed, spiteful, thoughtless, indifferent, - 90Tiger STL - 12/20 19:29:08




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