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I'm relying on the records of the debate. I'm not making

Posted on: October 30, 2018 at 09:12:20 CT
ummmm MU
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this up.

What they settled on has an ambiguity to it, since the "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" is a superfluous clause (if birthright citizenship is supposed to be granted by the amendment). So, with an ambiguity, you go to the notes and records of those who created the Amendment to determine original intent.


"Would the founding fathers sought to have excluded the newborns of immigrants setting foot on US soil for England, Ireland or Scotland, in 1868? "

The founding fathers? But, yes, they would have and they did.
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The 14th amendment grants birthright citizenship. It was not - hokie VT - 10/30 07:49:21
     No it doesn't - Kaw-djer - 10/30 13:08:11
     That was the last interpretation by SCOTUS - Spanky KU - 10/30 09:24:35
          good ol' legislation from the bench - FootballRefugee MU - 10/30 10:19:58
     I see Trump has gotten you all nice and scared before the - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 08:42:34
          Give that ridiculous fear thing a rest. You sound like - GA Tiger MU - 10/30 10:07:42
               Trump is appealing to a fear that Muslims have infiltrated - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 10:19:10
                    who "overblew" the caravan story? (nm) - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 10:31:03
                         The 24 hour media, Trump, far right wing conspiracy - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 10:51:08
                              So if you don't feel like you do about the caravan and - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 10:53:27
                                   That isn't what I said. - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 11:02:45
                                        then how should I have (correctly) interpreted your last - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 11:23:54
                                             RE: then how should I have (correctly) interpreted your last - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 11:58:28
                                                  yeah, that didn't address it at all, hence my follow up (nm) - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 13:02:03
          Yep, just like the caravan...the con man is doing his thing(nm) - playhard NWMSU - 10/30 09:54:59
          Guy is a moron, not concerned - however - raskolnikov MU - 10/30 09:21:26
          Fear is his favorite thing to run on - MrBlueSky MU - 10/30 08:50:03
               The Pubs will take away your Social Security!!! (nm) - Newcatbirdseat MU - 10/30 09:52:57
                    Both McConnell and Ryan seek to do that and to dismantle - raskolnikov MU - 10/30 09:54:29
                         Neither party is taking away any of that. (nm) - Newcatbirdseat MU - 10/30 10:02:36
                              The Poor can pay for the rich tax cuts - raskolnikov MU - 10/30 10:46:30
                         No, they don't. (nm) - ummmm MU - 10/30 09:55:41
                         FEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol (nm) - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:55:35
               Haha. Fear is the basis of every campaign these days. - ummmm MU - 10/30 09:50:38
               what on Earth are Dems running on? (nm) - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:20:43
                    Dems are not an effective opposition party - raskolnikov MU - 10/30 09:23:24
                         What are the running on in terms of Healthcare, exactly? - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:28:12
                              Pubs seek to take away their healthcare - raskolnikov MU - 10/30 09:43:47
                                   what law was that rask? And KC, I told you this is - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:50:50
                                        Thing what you want - raskolnikov MU - 10/30 09:56:23
                              You're asking for a set of specific policy positions - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 09:32:26
                                   No, I'm asking in general, because in general, they - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:33:29
                                        I think you're also making the mistake of taking political - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 09:36:19
                                             Political advertisement are precisely what one is - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:36:49
                                                  SMH! - Mo Texan MU - 10/30 10:22:35
                                                       So...the message you and kc have is: Claire tells her rallie - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 10:31:55
                                                            Not sure about kc, but imo you believe what you think and - Mo Texan MU - 10/30 10:43:13
                                                                 I linked debate from the ratification of the 14th - is - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 10:46:32
                                                                      Nice try, the discussion was about political ads. Looks like - Mo Texan MU - 10/30 11:05:27
                                                                           here is my OP in this thread - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 11:35:30
                                                  No, they are not - raskolnikov MU - 10/30 09:46:22
                                                       Right. My assumption is 90 hasn't attended a Claire - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 10:03:53
                                                            You've yet to articulate her policy positions here. Note: - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 10:27:49
                                                                 I was reading an article this morning about a position of - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 10:34:37
                                                                      maybe she should put that in her ADS? (nm) - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 10:48:19
                                                                           Yeah she should. - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 10:52:10
                                                                                yeah, I didn't say it was one sided in this regard. I made - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 10:54:37
                                                                                     You said they aren't running on anything. - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 10:56:32
                                                       RE: No, they are not - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:48:01
                                                            You can't have it both ways(nm) - raskolnikov MU - 10/30 09:57:43
                                                  On TV? Are you nuts? - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 09:42:04
                                                       If a candidate doesn't want them run, can they stop them? - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:47:45
                                                            I'm a moderate. Trump signed one of my bills into law. - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 09:50:06
                    Orange man Hitler. Orange man bad(nm) - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 10/30 09:22:13
                         Offering to be a check on Orange Man is actually - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 09:24:15
                              Yes because Orange man bad - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 10/30 09:25:30
                                   Exactly(nm) - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 09:26:49
               Debt... Oops. (nm) - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 09:18:44
               lol I love the latching on to the wage growth stat - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 10/30 09:18:27
                    Socialists tell us that rich people are bad. And they - hokie VT - 10/30 09:23:01
               And the socialists would never, ever run a campaign based on - hokie VT - 10/30 08:58:44
          Whatever it takes to keep democrats from ruining the - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 10/30 08:47:12
               LOL, so it's required that we strictly adhere - Mormad MU - 10/30 09:25:02
               Yep. Gotta keep Rs in there to make sure there won't be a - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 09:18:18
                    "fear" lol. (nm) - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:21:04
                         Speaking of fear - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 09:25:19
                              Trump created a caravan? Trump sent MSNBC, CNN, and - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:29:04
                                   Are MSNBC, CNN, and "all the networks" - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 09:33:26
                                        You don’t believe that muzz terrorists are part of that - hokie VT - 10/30 09:42:48
                                             Who knows. My guess is we'll figure it out when like 300 - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 09:51:26
                                                  That would be a great outcome. Sending troops now - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:56:34
                                                       It's thousands of miles on foot in 100+ weather - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 09:59:37
                                                            Well, hope they are more afraid of this than of Pubs taking - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 10:32:57
                                        Why did these liberally minded folks decide to make this - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:36:07
                                             I think 24 hour news is bad for everyone. - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 09:40:46
                                                  You don't think it's dangerous, so has that really happened? - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:43:51
                                                       I think that a group of people who are most likely going to - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 09:49:29
                                                            so Trump making sure they are stopped is...."bad"? I would - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:54:06
                                                                 You'd take asylum in Mexico instead of attempting to get it - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 09:56:11
                                                                      Oh, lol, so you're desperately escaping racial or religious - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 10:34:48
                                                                           No because in Mexico you could be murdered by cartels - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 10:54:06
                                                                                Being murdered by cartels? 10,000 of them? lol. - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 11:40:22
                                                                                     Yes I would rather seek asylum in the US than Mexico - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 12:18:48
                                        No, but they sure are making it a HUGE STORY, which I - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:35:29
                    Orange man bad, Orange man want kill environment - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 10/30 09:19:12
               ends justify the means? (nm) - TigerJackSwartz MU - 10/30 08:56:56
                    No this isn't some made up thing, this is a real threat - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 10/30 09:00:18
                         Just like the one earlier this year right? What a tragedy - kcnorthside KC - 10/30 09:26:22
                         End justifying the means, another example of a lib who is - hokie VT - 10/30 09:16:09
     And it should be the FIRST response to illegal immigration. - GA Tiger MU - 10/30 08:30:46
          Nothing about the 14th that deals w/illegal immigration(nm) - raskolnikov MU - 10/30 09:24:59
          That clause was included - DC Jayhawk KU - 10/30 08:36:02
               It was included because of slavery. I love how - GA Tiger MU - 10/30 08:38:03
                    No..it was included because many people did not - MrBlueSky MU - 10/30 08:48:28
                         jesus, man you are dumb, see Elk v Wilkens - Spanky KU - 10/30 09:47:09
                         lol, you're really out of your league and over your skiis on - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:21:52
                         Are you from the south? Or just naturally ignorant? - GA Tiger MU - 10/30 09:02:36
                              In 1868 you mean? Yes - MrBlueSky MU - 10/30 09:03:45
                         So why was the phrase 'and subject to the jurisdiction - DHighlander NWMSU - 10/30 08:56:10
                              Dunno. Another debatable point which in my opinion, argues - hokie VT - 10/30 09:03:01
                                   It's not debatable (nm) - Kaw-djer - 10/30 13:13:15
                                   Problem is that does not come from a law. It is a - DHighlander NWMSU - 10/30 09:16:09
                              Meaning - MrBlueSky MU - 10/30 08:59:09
                                   read - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:29:21
                                   no, lol (nm) - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:22:24
                                   Except definitely not Indians. (nm) - ummmm MU - 10/30 09:01:24
                                        I tend to agree with that - DC Jayhawk KU - 10/30 09:42:48
                                             It's a classic case of having your cake and eating it too. - ummmm MU - 10/30 09:51:17
                                        Injuns were not granted citizenship until 1924, IIRC. Nm - hokie VT - 10/30 09:09:34
                                             How could that be? The 14th Amendment is so universal - ummmm MU - 10/30 09:13:10
                                                  Because Indians were deemed sovereign and subject to - tigerdb MU - 10/30 09:20:53
                                                       Since you're all of the sudden a "plain meaning" guy when - ummmm MU - 10/30 09:23:15
                                                       exactly his point, good grief. people here who were subject - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:23:06
                                                            You're too ****ing dense to distinguish between - tigerdb MU - 10/30 09:34:25
                                                                 It isn't about being "subject to US authority", hoss. Tour - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:40:12
                                                                      LOL, teetee...where do I say that? - tigerdb MU - 10/30 09:56:46
                                                                           No, sport, I stated on my first response I don't support an - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 10:35:53
                                                                                You keep regurgitating some opinion piece as fact - tigerdb MU - 10/30 10:43:17
                                                                                     this should clarify: - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 10:51:02
                                                                                          See US vs Wong Kim Ark - tigerdb MU - 10/30 11:07:30
                                                                                               good grief, you're now introducing the racial part of - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 11:49:34
                                                                                                    LOL, what Teets? - tigerdb MU - 10/30 12:02:35
                                                                                     is THIS clear enough for you from the guy who wrote the - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 10:50:06
                                                                                     this isn't opinion - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 10:49:32
                                                                                     This isn't an opinion piece - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 10:48:44
                                                            These newfound Constitutionalists are struggling - ummmm MU - 10/30 09:24:08
                                                                 That's what happens when you use the constitution as - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:24:50
                                        Who had already agreed to several treaties with the American - MrBlueSky MU - 10/30 09:02:29
                                             The "point" is that Indians were subject to another gvmt - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:24:20
                                                  Illegal immigrants who live within the border of the USA - MrBlueSky MU - 10/30 09:28:33
                                                       READ - it isn't about being under the US' laws - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:30:20
                                                            This is where you're lost - and I don't know why you keep - tigerdb MU - 10/30 10:17:08
                                             Oh, so treaties can amend the Constitution ? (nm) - ummmm MU - 10/30 09:04:46
                              Except for possibly diplomats, every person on US soil - TigerJackSwartz MU - 10/30 08:58:52
                                   TJS - it's not about "being subject to the laws of". It's ab - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:26:57
                                        The 14th Amendment does not say that it bestows citizenship - tigerdb MU - 10/30 09:46:56
                                   If you are here illegally and intentionally hiding from US - DHighlander NWMSU - 10/30 09:04:51
                    Nothing was mangled. - DC Jayhawk KU - 10/30 08:40:28
          it's not an illegal immigration issue. - tigerdb MU - 10/30 08:33:16
               It is absolutely an immigration issue. Because of chain - hokie VT - 10/30 08:37:25
                    What about little Melania, who is born in Florida today, - tigerdb MU - 10/30 08:44:23
                         Most would say that any here legally we 'subject to the - DHighlander NWMSU - 10/30 08:53:35
                         I have no idea what you are attempting to say. Nm - hokie VT - 10/30 08:48:44
                              Seriously? That phrase was added to the 14th amendment. - DHighlander NWMSU - 10/30 08:59:10
                              RE: I have no idea what you are attempting to say. Nm - tigerdb MU - 10/30 08:54:21
                                   Since you are incapable of expressing yourself in a manner - hokie VT - 10/30 09:07:16
                                        You are a dense one HG... - tigerdb MU - 10/30 09:11:12
                                             the difference is the parents are still subjects of and - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:32:04
                                             Pathetic. It’s all about racism. That lame lie is all you - hokie VT - 10/30 09:18:28
                                                  LOL, no HG - you seem to focus on Maria squatting & popping - tigerdb MU - 10/30 09:25:33
                                                       You’re the one making this about race. You people are - hokie VT - 10/30 09:30:58
                                                       RE: LOL, no HG - you seem to focus on Maria squatting & popping - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:30:56
                                                            What does this have to do with Hokey's racism? - tigerdb MU - 10/30 09:38:42
                                                                 Did hokey say Germans, Poles, Swedes and other - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:41:18
                                                                      RE: Did hokey say Germans, Poles, Swedes and other - tigerdb MU - 10/30 10:06:37
                              And that's not surprising, as you are very stupid. (nm) - MrBlueSky MU - 10/30 08:50:41
               The hell it isn't. Why do you think the illegals, for - GA Tiger MU - 10/30 08:36:48
     This is not a debatable point - raskolnikov MU - 10/30 08:26:17
          false and your ignorance is on display again - this also - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 09:32:47
               That has never been true in practice - raskolnikov MU - 10/30 09:50:21
          Occasionally, you make posts that are so stupid, so partisan - hokie VT - 10/30 08:42:02
               14th Amendment is not under debate nor is it worthy of such - raskolnikov MU - 10/30 09:26:16
          Everything's debatable in america, dummy. Free speech. - RHAYWORTH MU - 10/30 08:41:43
          Pathetic why? Flesh it out for us, ras.(nm) - GA Tiger MU - 10/30 08:31:58
               Born American is Fundamental - raskolnikov MU - 10/30 09:27:01
          lol your feelings don't regulate citizenry in the US - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 10/30 08:30:42
          Why isn't it debateable. Just because that is - tman MU - 10/30 08:29:03
               We are BORN AMERICAN(nm) - raskolnikov MU - 10/30 09:27:39
               The raskol has decreed that it is not debatable. That’s what - hokie VT - 10/30 08:45:53
                    Sorry, I guess those afraid of scary brown people can debate - raskolnikov MU - 10/30 09:52:12
               Congress passed legislation, the SCOTUS has ruled on it... - tigerdb MU - 10/30 08:31:34
                    You can debate WHY WE NEED IT. - GA Tiger MU - 10/30 08:32:49
                         You are confusing thought with feeling - mu7176grad MU - 10/30 08:34:30
                              They react as pre-programmed robots. So predictable.(nm) - GA Tiger MU - 10/30 08:35:46
     RE: The 14th amendment grants birthright citizenship. It was not - slamduncan KC - 10/30 08:15:26
          The Right has been SO manipulated on this issue - raskolnikov MU - 10/30 08:28:59
          How can a newborn infant break the law? This is - hokie VT - 10/30 08:27:38
               RE: How can a newborn infant break the law? This is - slamduncan KC - 10/30 08:41:10
                    RE: How can a newborn infant break the law? This is - slamduncan KC - 10/30 08:42:47
          The unborn child didn't break the law to get here... - tigerdb MU - 10/30 08:23:46
               There is no such thing as an unborn child - raskolnikov MU - 10/30 08:31:54
     "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" is a phrase you - 90Tiger MU - 10/30 07:50:27
          You're saying that the US government & state governments - tigerdb MU - 10/30 08:25:03
               Oh they very much do today. But the intention of that - ummmm MU - 10/30 08:36:08
                    Actions sometimes have unintended consequences - tigerdb MU - 10/30 08:41:15
                         Oh, I'm sure you do think its pretty clear. - ummmm MU - 10/30 08:45:57
                              I realize that you're not the first person to go down this - tigerdb MU - 10/30 08:47:36
                                   I'm talking about original intent. - ummmm MU - 10/30 08:50:44
                                        The original intent was to extend citizenship to anyone - MrBlueSky MU - 10/30 08:52:23
                                             Those born in the US and not subject to the jurisdiction - ummmm MU - 10/30 08:54:10
                                                  They didn't say "not subject to a foreign power"... - tigerdb MU - 10/30 09:07:46
                                                       I'm relying on the records of the debate. I'm not making - ummmm MU - 10/30 09:12:20
                                                            There is no ambiguity...you're trying to create ambiguity - tigerdb MU - 10/30 09:15:09
                                                                 RE: There is no ambiguity...you're trying to create ambiguity - ummmm MU - 10/30 09:15:45
                                                                      RE: There is no ambiguity...you're trying to create ambiguity - tigerdb MU - 10/30 09:21:21
               He doesn't know what he's talking about - MrBlueSky MU - 10/30 08:26:15
          Not sure why you had to get pizzy about it. But I don’t - hokie VT - 10/30 07:52:26
               this would be a good place for you to start - blake1771 KC - 10/30 07:54:42
                    Thanks, I am familiar with those arguments, those arguments - hokie VT - 10/30 08:06:26
               lol hokie (nm) - SwampTiger MU - 10/30 07:53:47




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