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How can there be a society if there are no people who make

Posted on: December 20, 2016 at 13:56:32 CT
JeffB MU
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up that society?

As a for instance...

Let's say someone pollutes the air with something that will cause cancer in .5% of the people in a society over a 10 year time period.

Polluting the air can cause harm to that society, and there are individual people in that society who are indeed harmed.

Proving which individuals were hurt and by how much may be a difficult proposition, however. Rather than saying that Joe Blow, III got cancer (or asthma, or whatever) because of pickle's pollution might be hard to prove, particularly in the early years before the harm manifests itself, but the harm is real, as is the risk to society in general.

If you shoot a gun in the general direction of my property I am harmed even if it misses me and the guests at the bar-b-que and flies a few inches to the left of the head of one of my guests.
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If there is no victim, is there a crime? (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 10:51:34
     if i try to shoot you in the head, but miss - TigerwTLP MU - 12/20 12:37:28
          Yes - pickle MU - 12/20 12:41:59
               What if I intentionally missed you? - Spanky KU - 12/20 12:57:44
                    Still a crime (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 13:22:09
                         How are you a victim? Your life was never in danger. - Spanky KU - 12/20 13:28:32
                              My right to life was threatened - pickle MU - 12/20 13:33:05
                                   i would feel as if my life is in danger driving 70mph next - TigerwTLP MU - 12/20 13:56:16
                                        Yes and no - pickle MU - 12/20 14:14:07
                                   So.. the individual determines if something is a crime?(nm) - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 13:36:45
                                        The individual determines if his life is threatened - pickle MU - 12/20 13:38:32
                                             That is just dumb... If Fester glares at you, is your life - Spanky KU - 12/20 13:41:37
                                                  Of course not (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 14:05:30
                                                       Fester's glare is as dangerous to you as me shooting a gun - Spanky KU - 12/20 15:39:26
                                        He needs a 'safe zone' to be OK..... - Spanky KU - 12/20 13:37:44
                                   How? It was not pointed at you.. it was pointed away from - Spanky KU - 12/20 13:35:51
               So attempted harm - meatiger MU - 12/20 12:48:22
               If TigerwTLP is firing a gun up in the air and a round lands - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 12:45:34
                    No (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 13:21:27
                    yes - FootballRefugee MU - 12/20 12:50:02
                    this is probably what i should've asked to begin with (nm) - TigerwTLP MU - 12/20 12:46:53
     What "crime" are you eluding to here? (nm) - MIZ45 MU - 12/20 12:27:45
     Society has made decisions to outlaw - meatiger MU - 12/20 12:15:01
          Pickle is black and white on the issue and does not - jmlppx MU - 12/20 12:28:13
               you aren't able to articulate pickle's position on this and - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:35:17
               Probability is irrelevant (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 12:32:24
               Black and white are easy - meatiger MU - 12/20 12:30:35
                    there's nothing black and white about pickle's position and - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:36:16
                         His position it toally black and white - meatiger MU - 12/20 12:37:58
                              you don't have a position. you have a "case by case - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:41:31
          He's not asking you to tell him what current laws are. He's - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:15:36
               I generally agree with the path - meatiger MU - 12/20 12:19:17
                    That's not true - pickle MU - 12/20 12:31:01
                    he did no such thing here. you simply didn't answer his - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:22:32
                         There is still a crime without a victim. - Spanky KU - 12/20 12:29:34
                              There is no crime without a victim (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 12:34:44
                                   There is. You just don't want there to be. - Spanky KU - 12/20 12:37:35
                                        There isn't (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 13:33:56
                                             You are wrong. Look up the word 'crime' and - Spanky KU - 12/20 13:37:09
                                                  Your appeal to authority - pickle MU - 12/20 15:18:02
                                                       Your abuse of the English language is noted. - Spanky KU - 12/20 15:40:14
                         Yet there are rules everywhere - meatiger MU - 12/20 12:27:15
                              Non sequitur (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 12:34:21
                                   Of course - meatiger MU - 12/20 12:35:30
                                        Heaven forbid you can stay on topic - pickle MU - 12/20 12:40:23
                                        your post had nothing to do with the topic, meatiger (nm) - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:37:46
                                             It is very relevant - meatiger MU - 12/20 12:40:52
                                                  meatiger - what is your basis, using statistics, for determi - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:42:17
                                                       Since I am not an expert in the art, I don't know for sure - meatiger MU - 12/20 12:47:08
                                                            How can you form a law to prevent any of those things if - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:50:00
                                                                 So I need to be an expert in the art - meatiger MU - 12/20 13:08:21
                                                                      how many more accidents? how much more property damage? - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 13:15:35
                                                                           I am of the belief - meatiger MU - 12/20 13:20:57
                                                                                oh, well that's a nice belief and even if true, you pay - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 16:35:40
     what about abortion?(nm) - escalade NWMSU - 12/20 12:11:29
          Turn abortion over for a minute and ask this: - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:18:36
               she already made her choice(nm) - tigerinhogtown STL - 12/20 12:44:38
               was it immoral to recklessly put yourself... - escalade NWMSU - 12/20 12:22:54
                    No, it isn't moral for a woman to get pregnant "by choice or - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:26:08
                         no, i'm good with this one(nm) - escalade NWMSU - 12/20 12:26:47
                              well, given that it was a red herring, i'm surprised (nm) - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:37:18
                                   only to you... - escalade NWMSU - 12/20 12:40:46
                                        I told you I don't find it moral after you asked and then - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:42:51
                                             see my response below(nm) - escalade NWMSU - 12/20 12:45:35
               Wrong. Not offering the option of abortion is not - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 12:21:42
                    mandating a woman to carry and birth a child OR ELSE - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:24:50
                         you are ending a heartbeat... - escalade NWMSU - 12/20 12:26:12
                              Nobody is arguing for abortion, nobody argued that - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:28:56
                                   Denial of service is not force.(nm) - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 12:29:38
                                        If the denial is voluntary, it's not force - pickle MU - 12/20 14:15:52
                                        if a woman chooses to perform her own abortion or - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:44:23
                                             the performer should go to jail(nm) - escalade NWMSU - 12/20 12:48:10
                                                  for how long? why not the mother, she aided and - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:51:15
                                             There are laws against performing medical procedures - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 12:47:35
                                                  but you want the FDA to call it an unrecognized medical pro - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:52:09
                         Wrong. Not offering an option is not the same as force.(nm) - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 12:25:31
                              i read that the first time you typed it, Matt, and it's stil - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:26:38
                                   Incorrect. Rape is force, acting upon someone is force. - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 12:27:57
                                        putting a woman in prison or fining her or other for - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:40:05
                                             Who said anything about a penalty? Could be as simple - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 12:43:39
                                                  wait, now we have another discussion altogether. so - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:46:02
                                                       It is an interesting topic. (nm) - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 12:51:57
                                             i'm not advocating the woman goes to jail... - escalade NWMSU - 12/20 12:41:59
                                                  Ok - so you believe anyone performing an abortion - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:48:17
                                                       ok, you talked me into it... - escalade NWMSU - 12/20 14:04:27
          Same answer as when you asked earlier - pickle MU - 12/20 12:14:09
               nothing more natural than the conception to birth... - escalade NWMSU - 12/20 12:17:39
                    not really a scale, but ok? (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 13:35:24
                    Unless it isn't. Women who become pregnant who are - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:21:22
                         i didn't ask you to do anything... - escalade NWMSU - 12/20 12:24:19
                              that isn't even part of the topic or the discussion, but - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 13:08:15
                         Unless they were raped, there is no force. They acted of - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 12:23:03
     Can't answer as that question is too vague.(nm) - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 11:57:04
          Ok (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 11:59:06
               If you are asking if there can be crime, but no victim, then - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 12:09:26
                    RE: If you are asking if there can be crime, but no victim, then - pickle MU - 12/20 12:13:34
                         If I walk into a store and shoplift, is it not a crime? - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 12:18:01
                              Yes, it's a crime - pickle MU - 12/20 12:36:41
                                   Does a corporation have property rights?(nm) - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 12:37:47
                                        No, the owners do (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 13:30:04
                                        people do and people are corporations, corporations are - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:54:03
                                             Corporations are businesses chartered by the state. Pickle - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 13:05:23
                                                  That's ridiculous. Of course I recognize the State exists - pickle MU - 12/20 13:31:03
                         So if I tap into the cable company owned line running to - TigerMatt STL - 12/20 12:16:15
                              It's a crime because you are infringing - pickle MU - 12/20 12:35:53
     Crimes are committed against people - El-ahrairah KC - 12/20 11:41:33
          RE: Crimes are committed against people - Alferd Packer MU - 12/20 12:16:26
               there is a victim, the owners of the playground who chipped - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:54:56
          Society is not made up of people? - Spanky KU - 12/20 11:43:35
               yes, but society is not a person. it's a tough concept for - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:55:33
               RE: Society is not made up of people? - El-ahrairah KC - 12/20 11:48:05
                    I answered that post - Spanky KU - 12/20 11:51:47
                         by repeating what he said - pickle MU - 12/20 11:54:19
                              Irony. (nm) - JeffB MU - 12/20 13:37:41
                              No.. it isn't. - Spanky KU - 12/20 12:04:04
          Society is imaginary? (nm) - JeffB MU - 12/20 11:42:42
               crimes against society - El-ahrairah KC - 12/20 11:47:38
                    Speeding is a crime against society. Driving drunk is a - Spanky KU - 12/20 11:49:51
                         Crime ONLY exists if there is a victim - pickle MU - 12/20 11:58:38
                              Who or what gave you the authority to define what is and - JeffB MU - 12/20 13:05:39
                              That is incorrect. Learn the meaning of words, man. - Spanky KU - 12/20 12:07:20
                                   How can there be a crime if there is no victim? (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 12:18:57
                                        How can there be a society if there are no people who make - JeffB MU - 12/20 13:56:32
                                        Because there is no requirement for a victim in a crime. - Spanky KU - 12/20 12:26:05
                                             why is that, spanky? why is something a crime if there is n - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 12:57:05
                                                  Because words have meanings... I stated below that pickle - Spanky KU - 12/20 13:00:54
                                                       the meanings of words is constantly changing spanky and is - 90Tiger MU - 12/20 13:19:18
                                                            No they aren't.... Give me an example of the evolution of - Spanky KU - 12/20 13:30:28
                                             How can there be a crime if there is no victim? (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 12:37:07
                         no they aren't crimes - El-ahrairah KC - 12/20 11:57:13
                              Do you need the statute to prove to you that they are? - Spanky KU - 12/20 12:08:01
                              they are absolutely crimes, if you commit them you - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 12/20 12:05:21
                    Who or what gave you the authority to define what is and - JeffB MU - 12/20 11:49:49
     Yes... - Salty Dog MU - 12/20 11:23:06
     I had $18K dollars taken from my savings account - tman KC - 12/20 11:21:55
          Did the bank take it or replace it after someone else took - Alferd Packer MU - 12/20 12:11:35
               Someone else. But their is not victim. That implies harm - tman KC - 12/20 12:32:47
                    Do try to make sense (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 13:36:44
               If someone takes $20 from you and replaces it before - Spanky KU - 12/20 12:15:18
     a lot of malum prohibitum crimes(nm) - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 12/20 11:08:12
          Example? (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 11:12:06
               Spanky has already given you a couple(nm) - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 12/20 11:16:16
                    He hasn't even given one example (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 11:21:05
                         I know you're being intentionally difficult - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 12/20 11:25:51
                         Read man... - Spanky KU - 12/20 11:21:42
                    He can't read my posts. They seem to blow his argument - Spanky KU - 12/20 11:19:26
          The distinction between malum prohibitum and malum per se - ummmm MU - 12/20 11:12:01
               Why? Most crimes are malum per se - Spanky KU - 12/20 11:18:32
                    Because the concept implies that there are some things - ummmm MU - 12/20 11:25:01
                         Murder, Rape, Theft are malum per se - Spanky KU - 12/20 11:35:30
                              Prohibited, yes. But crimes, no. - ummmm MU - 12/20 11:52:51
                                   You are wrong. Look up the word 'crime' and - Spanky KU - 12/20 12:08:48
                                        This is a non-sequitur and an appeal to authority. - ummmm MU - 12/20 13:29:11
                                             No It is just English. You should learn it sometime - Spanky KU - 12/20 16:05:42
                                   it's a crime if a society says it's a crime(nm) - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 12/20 12:00:00
                                        RE: it's a crime if a society says it's a crime(nm) - ummmm MU - 12/20 12:07:39
                                             correct at one time that was a crime(nm) - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 12/20 12:10:16
                                                  and that is problematic (nm) - ummmm MU - 12/20 13:31:30
                         I don't think many doubt the existence of certain - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 12/20 11:27:26
                              Right. (nm) - ummmm MU - 12/20 11:28:52
               ok(nm) - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 12/20 11:17:06
     Yes. - Spanky KU - 12/20 11:01:51
          Example? (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 11:03:46
               Mizzou basketball(nm) - jmlppx MU - 12/20 11:11:28
               Driving with a BAC of .01 on the wrong side of the road. - Spanky KU - 12/20 11:11:24
                    Who are the victims? (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 11:21:39
                         What was your question, dumb@ss? - Spanky KU - 12/20 11:23:03
                              If there is no victim - pickle MU - 12/20 11:32:40
                                   you'd have to define victim as was stated earlier. using the - blake1771 KC - 12/20 12:25:14
                                        I already have. Here: - pickle MU - 12/20 15:36:31
                                   That was not your question, dip stick. - Spanky KU - 12/20 11:38:31
                                        No, I've asked you the question I'd like you to answer - pickle MU - 12/20 11:42:56
                                             How can you get any pudding if you don't eat your meat? - Spanky KU - 12/20 11:46:45
                                                  How can there be a crime if there is no victim? (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 11:50:01
                                                       Because words have meaning. You want to redefine the word - Spanky KU - 12/20 11:52:31
                                                            How can something be a crime if there is no victim? (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 11:54:55
                                                                 Because words have meaning. You want to redefine the word - Spanky KU - 12/20 12:09:37
                                        Exactly(nm) - jmlppx MU - 12/20 11:40:52
                              Lol this is funny. (nm) - MrBlueSky MU - 12/20 11:26:22
               exposing yourself to a blind person(nm) - Butcher of Bakersfield STL - 12/20 11:09:09
                    8 years olds, dude (nm) - MrBlueSky MU - 12/20 11:19:27
               Not wearing your Star of David patch (nm) - ummmm MU - 12/20 11:06:57
               Possession of drugs (nm) - MrBlueSky MU - 12/20 11:06:30
               DUI(nm) - meatiger MU - 12/20 11:05:58
                    Who is the victim? (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 11:11:05
                         I never claimed a crime needed a victim(nm) - meatiger MU - 12/20 11:12:07
                              Were you anticipating Spanky's response? (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 11:20:28
                                   No..I was answering your question - meatiger MU - 12/20 11:27:23
                                        That wasn't my question (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 11:30:05
                                             yes it was - meatiger MU - 12/20 11:32:17
                                                  No, it wasn't - pickle MU - 12/20 11:37:20
                                                       That wasn't your question, dumb@ss. - Spanky KU - 12/20 11:41:36
                                                       Becasue there is a law against something - meatiger MU - 12/20 11:39:47
                                                            That's begging the question - pickle MU - 12/20 11:45:05
                                                                 You want to redefine the word 'crime' - Spanky KU - 12/20 11:47:59
                                                                      How can there be crime if there is no victim? (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 11:50:32
                                                                           RE: How can there be crime if there is no victim? (nm) - Spanky KU - 12/20 11:52:57
                                                                                How can something be a crime if there is no victim? (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 11:55:28
                                                                                     Because words have meaning. You want to redefine the word - Spanky KU - 12/20 12:09:51
                                                                                          How can there be a crime if there is no victim? (nm) - pickle MU - 12/20 13:37:11
                                                                                               Because there's no requirement for a victim to be a crime. - Spanky KU - 12/20 18:59:34
                                                  Pickle is stuck in a "do loop." (nm) - jmlppx MU - 12/20 11:34:02
                                   What question did you ask in your OP? - Spanky KU - 12/20 11:24:07
                              He forgot that he asked for examples of crimes without - Spanky KU - 12/20 11:12:52
                         You asked for examples where there is no victim, dumb@ss - Spanky KU - 12/20 11:12:07
               Not moving to the back of the bus. (nm) - ummmm MU - 12/20 11:05:32
                    Pickle was probably on the short bus anyways(nm) - meatiger MU - 12/20 11:06:19
     If a tree falls, but no one is there to hear it, does it - MUTGR MU - 12/20 10:58:23
     If there is no rain, are there clouds?(nm) - jmlppx MU - 12/20 10:56:13
     wrong board.(nm) - SuperTone MU - 12/20 10:56:08
     Wrong board (nm) - Fourth and Long MU - 12/20 10:55:11




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