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To use pickle's example above.

Posted on: April 8, 2021 at 11:36:53 CT
kmawv8 MU
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Giving a mugger your wallet to avoid being shot is an "out clause", but it doesn't make that transaction voluntary.
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If anyone wishes to dispute your citizenship is a voluntary - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 09:56:56
     But HOAs are not voluntary - meatiger MU - 4/8 11:02:50
          they are voluntary(nm) - dangertim MU - 4/8 11:11:35
               Correct - no one makes you join - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:16:57
                    OH, So now you want to focus on how you join - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:20:59
                         It doesn't matter - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:21:53
                              False. (nm) - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:24:41
                              no (nm) - pickle MU - 4/8 11:22:52
               it was sarcasm - meatiger MU - 4/8 11:16:40
                    ah(nm) - dangertim MU - 4/8 11:20:22
     citizenship is applied to a newborn, they aren't given - 90Tiger STL - 4/8 10:40:50
          So if you aren't able to be a citizen at birth but can do so - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:08:39
               No. How do you compare those two things? - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:31:05
          That does not change the fact that as soon as their - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:49:47
               I was corrected on that(nm) - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:21:02
               This is downright false. (nm) - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:19:10
               Citizenship is imposed at birth by force and without choice - pickle MU - 4/8 10:53:57
               Wow(nm) - Panthera MU - 4/8 10:51:26
               wrong. "parents may not renounce the citizenship of their - TigerJackSwartz MU - 4/8 10:51:24
     the State (nm) - pickle MU - 4/8 10:08:37
          how is the state forcing you to keep your citizenship?(nm) - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 10:39:02
               They don’t (nm) - Outsider MU - 4/8 10:44:48
               "keep"? lol. I think you mean "get"/"become". The - 90Tiger STL - 4/8 10:42:11
                    sure, but this is about dropping it - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 10:45:56
                         This isn't just about "dropping it". The question in the OP - 90Tiger STL - 4/8 10:47:32
                              But dropping it is voluntary...is it not?(nm) - Outsider MU - 4/8 10:48:57
                                   That doesn’t make the relationship voluntary - pickle MU - 4/8 11:04:29
                                        Wow, awesome example. (nm) - Outsider MU - 4/8 11:30:34
                                   Sure, what does that have to do with whether becoming - 90Tiger STL - 4/8 10:50:59
                                        I said it is a voluntary association - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:58:36
                                             No, you realized halfway through the thread that minors - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:18:23
                                                  I was wrong on that point, but it is consistent with most - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:20:30
                                                       It's not. (nm) - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:23:17
                                                       lol (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 4/8 11:22:30
                                                            Show me one adult being forced to maintain citizenship - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:24:40
                                                                 It's amazing how quickly you change your parameters - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:26:07
                                                                      So answer this - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:31:16
                                                                           It's not the same thing. - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:34:34
                                                                           There is no legitimacy behind it - pickle MU - 4/8 11:34:03
                                                                      yep (nm) - pickle MU - 4/8 11:30:43
                                                       No, it is not a voluntary relationship (nm) - pickle MU - 4/8 11:22:28
                                             false (nm) - pickle MU - 4/8 11:06:00
                                        because citizenship becomes voluntary - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 10:55:07
                                             A relationship can't all the sudden become volunatry. - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:17:20
                                                  look up what voluntary means - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 11:21:11
                                                       Look up what voluntary association means. - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:28:14
                                                            An out clause - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:34:59
                                                                 To use pickle's example above. - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:36:53
                                                                      Who is forcing you under threat to remain a citizen? - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:37:26
                                                                           The state, unless I hand over money. - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:39:00
                                                                                So since there are consequences if I don't pay my - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:43:23
                                                                                     You signed up for that under a written contract - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:45:13
                                                            yes, that's why I said it is no longer a voluntary - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 11:29:34
                                                                 I think you mean the opposite. - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:35:55
                                                                      correct, sorry(nm) - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 11:49:00
                                                                      Penalties have nothing to do with it - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:36:52
                                                                           the State solely exists by force and coercion - pickle MU - 4/8 11:40:17
                                                                                except that your citizenship becomes voluntary - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 11:49:38
                                                                                     It doesn't. - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:52:27
                                                                                          there is a financial penalty for moving out of the country?(nm) - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 12:29:38
                                                                                               no, there is a financial penalty for renouncing citizenship - ashtray UF - 4/8 12:32:55
                                                                                                    but aren't you only subjugated to the laws if you live here? - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 12:34:56
                                                                                                         “subjugated” (nm) - pickle MU - 4/8 13:01:27
                                                                                                         no, you are subjugated to the laws as long as you hold - ashtray UF - 4/8 12:39:56
                                                                                                              is a U.S. citizen working in London (or some other city) - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 12:41:42
                                                                                                                   yes (nm) - ashtray UF - 4/8 12:48:08
                              you responded to this specific question - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 10:48:56
     why would renouncement be required if it was voluntary? - ashtray UF - 4/8 09:59:14
          OK - I will respond to you on this one - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:15:39
               "rights and privileges" which are "bestowed upon you" withou - 90Tiger STL - 4/8 10:46:14
               you joined the employer or club voluntarily - ashtray UF - 4/8 10:23:00
                    Yes, when you renounce membership with almost anything there - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:25:26
                         Why did you not address his post. You never voluntarily - 90Tiger STL - 4/8 10:48:23
                              Sure it does - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:52:45
                                   “forced to remain”. Were they forced to begin with? (nm) - pickle MU - 4/8 10:55:02
                         ^^^Used to work out. (nm) - Newcatbirdseat MU - 4/8 10:39:57
                         If you actually paid attention - meatiger MU - 4/8 10:34:47
                              Name one adult citizen of the US who is being forced - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:53:16
                                   every adult that the State claims is a citizen - pickle MU - 4/8 10:55:41
                                   remaining a citizen is irrelevant to the fact you are forced - ashtray UF - 4/8 10:54:49
                                        There are almost always consequences to leaving something - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:55:35
                                             false - ashtray UF - 4/8 10:58:50
                                                  Name one adult US citizen being forced to remain a citizen - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:00:43
                                                       LOL, liar - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:14:01
                                                            That is like saying if you cannot become a US citizen until - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:17:44
                                                                 Not at all. As usual, that's a horrible analogy. (nm) - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:29:07
                                                                 no (nm) - pickle MU - 4/8 11:19:54
                                                       again, that doesn’t make it a voluntary relationship - pickle MU - 4/8 11:06:51
                         There is nothing voluntary about it (nm) - pickle MU - 4/8 10:31:16
                         it isn't voluntary if it's forced - ashtray UF - 4/8 10:27:50
                              because he doesn’t want to believe it - pickle MU - 4/8 10:32:03
                              it makes sense "in his mind" - TigerJackSwartz MU - 4/8 10:29:12
               again, you keep trying to equate gvmt with business - pickle MU - 4/8 10:20:47
               Were you employed at your employer, or a member of your - TigerJackSwartz MU - 4/8 10:18:15
                    No, but why does that matter? - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:21:12
                         because it is the very essence of "voluntary" lol - 90Tiger STL - 4/8 10:49:43
                         because of this - ashtray UF - 4/8 10:26:51
                              That may point to the impact of citizenship - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:28:07
                                   there is nothing voluntary about it. Start at the beginning - pickle MU - 4/8 10:30:29
                                   have you ever tried? - ashtray UF - 4/8 10:29:10
                                        there is a big fee, you have to take an oath, travel to - TigerJackSwartz MU - 4/8 10:30:32
                                             No one said it is without effort - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:54:19
                                             and then continue paying taxes afterwards - ashtray UF - 4/8 10:33:47
                                        I have not - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:30:16
                                             you did not voluntarily join (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 4/8 10:52:08
                                                  Name one adult citizen of the US who is being forced - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:53:39
                                                       What happens when you renounce your citizenship?(nm) - meatiger MU - 4/8 11:17:50
                                                            You lose the privileges of citizenship(nm) - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:18:19
                                                                 what does that mean? - meatiger MU - 4/8 11:29:13
                                                                      There are benefits to being a US citizen - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:38:02
                                                                 lol (nm) - pickle MU - 4/8 11:20:20
                         Minors are limited in renouncing citizenship - TigerJackSwartz MU - 4/8 10:24:29
                              But it can be done as you lay out - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:26:32
                                   If you are 16 or under you can't. Nothing voluntary about - TigerJackSwartz MU - 4/8 10:27:26
                                        Presumed not forbidden(nm) - tman MU - 4/8 10:33:15
                                             it doesn't happen. The State department presumes - TigerJackSwartz MU - 4/8 10:38:28
                                        As with most issues with minors - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:29:55
                                             read it again, the parents of a minor, explicitly, CANNOT - TigerJackSwartz MU - 4/8 10:32:18
                                                  OK - my bad - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:51:35
                         Because the State imposes “citizenship” on people - pickle MU - 4/8 10:24:00
                              You had the option to leave on day one - tman MU - 4/8 10:28:00
                                   Incorrect (nm) - TigerJackSwartz MU - 4/8 10:41:44
                                        You are correct. - tman MU - 4/8 10:52:31
          he’s not being honest - pickle MU - 4/8 10:09:55




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