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If you actually paid attention

Posted on: April 8, 2021 at 10:34:47 CT
meatiger MU
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you would realize they are not the same thing. I struggled with this mightily for a long time. Citizenship is forced upon you at birth, through no choice of yours at all. There is no other club that does that....in those cases, your parents must do that on your behalf.

I understand it and now just accept it for what it is, but that does not change the reality of what it is.

I don't know all the ramifications of renouncing citizenship. Can you still be here, what are property rights, etc.

I also understand that the "system" is not going to change anytime soon, but that does not preclude having a better understanding of the actual nature of the system vs lying and doing false equivalencies as you do. I did all those before, because it is very difficult to accept what you have been educated about and belief system is something you don't want to change your own paradigm.

The great thing for me...there is a group of people on here that understand it far longer and far better than me....and then there are people like you that actually make their positions much more clear, because your arguments are so absurd now that I have opened my mind.
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If anyone wishes to dispute your citizenship is a voluntary - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 09:56:56
     But HOAs are not voluntary - meatiger MU - 4/8 11:02:50
          they are voluntary(nm) - dangertim MU - 4/8 11:11:35
               Correct - no one makes you join - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:16:57
                    OH, So now you want to focus on how you join - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:20:59
                         It doesn't matter - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:21:53
                              False. (nm) - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:24:41
                              no (nm) - pickle MU - 4/8 11:22:52
               it was sarcasm - meatiger MU - 4/8 11:16:40
                    ah(nm) - dangertim MU - 4/8 11:20:22
     citizenship is applied to a newborn, they aren't given - 90Tiger STL - 4/8 10:40:50
          So if you aren't able to be a citizen at birth but can do so - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:08:39
               No. How do you compare those two things? - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:31:05
          That does not change the fact that as soon as their - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:49:47
               I was corrected on that(nm) - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:21:02
               This is downright false. (nm) - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:19:10
               Citizenship is imposed at birth by force and without choice - pickle MU - 4/8 10:53:57
               Wow(nm) - Panthera MU - 4/8 10:51:26
               wrong. "parents may not renounce the citizenship of their - TigerJackSwartz MU - 4/8 10:51:24
     the State (nm) - pickle MU - 4/8 10:08:37
          how is the state forcing you to keep your citizenship?(nm) - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 10:39:02
               They don’t (nm) - Outsider MU - 4/8 10:44:48
               "keep"? lol. I think you mean "get"/"become". The - 90Tiger STL - 4/8 10:42:11
                    sure, but this is about dropping it - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 10:45:56
                         This isn't just about "dropping it". The question in the OP - 90Tiger STL - 4/8 10:47:32
                              But dropping it is voluntary...is it not?(nm) - Outsider MU - 4/8 10:48:57
                                   That doesn’t make the relationship voluntary - pickle MU - 4/8 11:04:29
                                        Wow, awesome example. (nm) - Outsider MU - 4/8 11:30:34
                                   Sure, what does that have to do with whether becoming - 90Tiger STL - 4/8 10:50:59
                                        I said it is a voluntary association - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:58:36
                                             No, you realized halfway through the thread that minors - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:18:23
                                                  I was wrong on that point, but it is consistent with most - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:20:30
                                                       It's not. (nm) - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:23:17
                                                       lol (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 4/8 11:22:30
                                                            Show me one adult being forced to maintain citizenship - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:24:40
                                                                 It's amazing how quickly you change your parameters - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:26:07
                                                                      So answer this - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:31:16
                                                                           It's not the same thing. - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:34:34
                                                                           There is no legitimacy behind it - pickle MU - 4/8 11:34:03
                                                                      yep (nm) - pickle MU - 4/8 11:30:43
                                                       No, it is not a voluntary relationship (nm) - pickle MU - 4/8 11:22:28
                                             false (nm) - pickle MU - 4/8 11:06:00
                                        because citizenship becomes voluntary - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 10:55:07
                                             A relationship can't all the sudden become volunatry. - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:17:20
                                                  look up what voluntary means - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 11:21:11
                                                       Look up what voluntary association means. - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:28:14
                                                            An out clause - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:34:59
                                                                 To use pickle's example above. - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:36:53
                                                                      Who is forcing you under threat to remain a citizen? - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:37:26
                                                                           The state, unless I hand over money. - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:39:00
                                                                                So since there are consequences if I don't pay my - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:43:23
                                                                                     You signed up for that under a written contract - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:45:13
                                                            yes, that's why I said it is no longer a voluntary - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 11:29:34
                                                                 I think you mean the opposite. - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:35:55
                                                                      correct, sorry(nm) - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 11:49:00
                                                                      Penalties have nothing to do with it - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:36:52
                                                                           the State solely exists by force and coercion - pickle MU - 4/8 11:40:17
                                                                                except that your citizenship becomes voluntary - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 11:49:38
                                                                                     It doesn't. - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:52:27
                                                                                          there is a financial penalty for moving out of the country?(nm) - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 12:29:38
                                                                                               no, there is a financial penalty for renouncing citizenship - ashtray UF - 4/8 12:32:55
                                                                                                    but aren't you only subjugated to the laws if you live here? - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 12:34:56
                                                                                                         “subjugated” (nm) - pickle MU - 4/8 13:01:27
                                                                                                         no, you are subjugated to the laws as long as you hold - ashtray UF - 4/8 12:39:56
                                                                                                              is a U.S. citizen working in London (or some other city) - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 12:41:42
                                                                                                                   yes (nm) - ashtray UF - 4/8 12:48:08
                              you responded to this specific question - Fire Marshall Bill MU - 4/8 10:48:56
     why would renouncement be required if it was voluntary? - ashtray UF - 4/8 09:59:14
          OK - I will respond to you on this one - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:15:39
               "rights and privileges" which are "bestowed upon you" withou - 90Tiger STL - 4/8 10:46:14
               you joined the employer or club voluntarily - ashtray UF - 4/8 10:23:00
                    Yes, when you renounce membership with almost anything there - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:25:26
                         Why did you not address his post. You never voluntarily - 90Tiger STL - 4/8 10:48:23
                              Sure it does - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:52:45
                                   “forced to remain”. Were they forced to begin with? (nm) - pickle MU - 4/8 10:55:02
                         ^^^Used to work out. (nm) - Newcatbirdseat MU - 4/8 10:39:57
                         If you actually paid attention - meatiger MU - 4/8 10:34:47
                              Name one adult citizen of the US who is being forced - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:53:16
                                   every adult that the State claims is a citizen - pickle MU - 4/8 10:55:41
                                   remaining a citizen is irrelevant to the fact you are forced - ashtray UF - 4/8 10:54:49
                                        There are almost always consequences to leaving something - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:55:35
                                             false - ashtray UF - 4/8 10:58:50
                                                  Name one adult US citizen being forced to remain a citizen - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:00:43
                                                       LOL, liar - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:14:01
                                                            That is like saying if you cannot become a US citizen until - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:17:44
                                                                 Not at all. As usual, that's a horrible analogy. (nm) - kmawv8 KC - 4/8 11:29:07
                                                                 no (nm) - pickle MU - 4/8 11:19:54
                                                       again, that doesn’t make it a voluntary relationship - pickle MU - 4/8 11:06:51
                         There is nothing voluntary about it (nm) - pickle MU - 4/8 10:31:16
                         it isn't voluntary if it's forced - ashtray UF - 4/8 10:27:50
                              because he doesn’t want to believe it - pickle MU - 4/8 10:32:03
                              it makes sense "in his mind" - TigerJackSwartz MU - 4/8 10:29:12
               again, you keep trying to equate gvmt with business - pickle MU - 4/8 10:20:47
               Were you employed at your employer, or a member of your - TigerJackSwartz MU - 4/8 10:18:15
                    No, but why does that matter? - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:21:12
                         because it is the very essence of "voluntary" lol - 90Tiger STL - 4/8 10:49:43
                         because of this - ashtray UF - 4/8 10:26:51
                              That may point to the impact of citizenship - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:28:07
                                   there is nothing voluntary about it. Start at the beginning - pickle MU - 4/8 10:30:29
                                   have you ever tried? - ashtray UF - 4/8 10:29:10
                                        there is a big fee, you have to take an oath, travel to - TigerJackSwartz MU - 4/8 10:30:32
                                             No one said it is without effort - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:54:19
                                             and then continue paying taxes afterwards - ashtray UF - 4/8 10:33:47
                                        I have not - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:30:16
                                             you did not voluntarily join (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 4/8 10:52:08
                                                  Name one adult citizen of the US who is being forced - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:53:39
                                                       What happens when you renounce your citizenship?(nm) - meatiger MU - 4/8 11:17:50
                                                            You lose the privileges of citizenship(nm) - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:18:19
                                                                 what does that mean? - meatiger MU - 4/8 11:29:13
                                                                      There are benefits to being a US citizen - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 11:38:02
                                                                 lol (nm) - pickle MU - 4/8 11:20:20
                         Minors are limited in renouncing citizenship - TigerJackSwartz MU - 4/8 10:24:29
                              But it can be done as you lay out - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:26:32
                                   If you are 16 or under you can't. Nothing voluntary about - TigerJackSwartz MU - 4/8 10:27:26
                                        Presumed not forbidden(nm) - tman MU - 4/8 10:33:15
                                             it doesn't happen. The State department presumes - TigerJackSwartz MU - 4/8 10:38:28
                                        As with most issues with minors - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:29:55
                                             read it again, the parents of a minor, explicitly, CANNOT - TigerJackSwartz MU - 4/8 10:32:18
                                                  OK - my bad - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/8 10:51:35
                         Because the State imposes “citizenship” on people - pickle MU - 4/8 10:24:00
                              You had the option to leave on day one - tman MU - 4/8 10:28:00
                                   Incorrect (nm) - TigerJackSwartz MU - 4/8 10:41:44
                                        You are correct. - tman MU - 4/8 10:52:31
          he’s not being honest - pickle MU - 4/8 10:09:55




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