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Not so sure about patently self-evident....

Posted on: October 12, 2017 at 13:36:09 CT
JeffB MU
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The Laws of Nature would seem to be survival of the fittest.

Lions don't seem to respect these natural rights of humans. Nor do mosquitoes or bacteria or viruses. Even humans have historically felt entitled to take what they want from other humans and/or to kill them if that seemed to be in their best interests.

Even today if one looks in the papers one sees these "natural laws" violated numerous times and the newspaper accounts are undoubtedly just the tip of the iceberg. In other words, the "natural laws" might not be as natural to human nature as you seem to imply.

Edited by JeffB at 13:37:01 on 10/12/17
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SideshowBob: In response to your post made here: - ummmm MU - 10/12 12:22:21
     RE: SideshowBob: In response to your post made here: - SideshowBob MU - 10/12 13:33:21
          natural rights certain can inform your moral code - MizzouAstro MU - 10/12 13:35:10
               So you agree on the immorality of ripping unborn babies limb - JeffB MU - 10/12 14:46:34
                    frame this question in an unhysterical way and I will answer - MizzouAstro MU - 10/12 15:57:29
     what are the specific natural rights? - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 10/12 12:29:23
          It begins with the right of self-ownership - pickle MU - 10/12 12:56:07
               Your rights come from God - Preacher UMKC - 10/12 13:19:40
                    natural rights are a human construct, they do not exist - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 10/12 14:09:19
                    Natural rights, not supernatural rights - pickle MU - 10/12 13:29:03
                         If God is a myth and natural rights really exist - Preacher UMKC - 10/12 13:36:58
                              Because although man's nature is cooperative - pickle MU - 10/12 13:40:19
                                   Well that is easy son. A world full of people without God - Preacher UMKC - 10/12 13:48:21
                                        That's not an answer - pickle MU - 10/12 13:53:08
                                             Here's my answer and I'm not going to fight about - MUGuy2004 STL - 10/12 14:08:48
                                                  free will doesn't exist if an omniscient god exists(nm) - cnk ATL - 10/12 14:15:11
                                                       that doesn't follow - MizzouAstro MU - 10/12 14:23:54
                                                            Parents can't stop their kids from making bad choices. - MUGuy2004 STL - 10/12 14:25:54
                                                            that's exactly what that means(nm) - cnk ATL - 10/12 14:25:06
                                                                 no it isn't - MizzouAstro MU - 10/12 14:28:36
                                                                      Let's pretend I'm an omniscient god - cnk ATL - 10/12 15:11:53
                                                                           yes you can - MizzouAstro MU - 10/12 15:56:51
                                                                                how could you choose A? - cnk ATL - 10/12 16:01:25
                                                                                     I have the abililty to choose A - MizzouAstro MU - 10/12 16:35:04
                                                                           You have a choice. Why would an omniscient God say - MUGuy2004 STL - 10/12 15:41:41
                                                                                How can you choose A if I already know you'll choose B?(nm) - cnk ATL - 10/12 15:44:11
                                                                                     I understand, I've asked the same questions. But, - MUGuy2004 STL - 10/12 15:46:16
                                                                                          you haven't answered my question(nm) - cnk ATL - 10/12 15:47:17
                                                                                               You are pre-supposing a lot in your question. You don't - MUGuy2004 STL - 10/12 15:48:34
                                                                                                    In the hypothetical I'm presenting, I know what choice you - cnk ATL - 10/12 15:51:32
                                                                                                         So you have given up on your kids? Nothing you can do - MUGuy2004 STL - 10/12 15:56:29
                                                       I know that is your hope(nm) - MUGuy2004 STL - 10/12 14:22:39
                                                  Edit: thought I was replying to Preacher - pickle MU - 10/12 14:12:43
                              Nm - TigerMatt MU - 10/12 13:39:12
                                   RE: If God is real, why is the world in chaos right - Preacher UMKC - 10/12 13:49:13
                                        Just as simple saying a world full of people not - TigerMatt MU - 10/12 13:51:39
                                   Beat me to it (nm) - pickle MU - 10/12 13:40:32
                    "nature" can (and does in my opinion) mean God - MizzouAstro MU - 10/12 13:21:42
                         If you are a pantheist yes - Preacher UMKC - 10/12 13:25:58
                              Natural rights are inherent to all men - pickle MU - 10/12 13:35:31
                              Rights exist in spite of religion, not because - TigerMatt MU - 10/12 13:33:48
                              i'm not a pantheist - MizzouAstro MU - 10/12 13:29:42
                                   What use are they if they cannot be exercised ? - Preacher UMKC - 10/12 13:34:51
                                        What prevents them from exercising natural rights?(nm) - TigerMatt MU - 10/12 13:35:39
                                        they have been brainwashed for decades - MizzouAstro MU - 10/12 13:35:25
                                             LOL Why doesn"t the dictatorial regime recognize their - Preacher UMKC - 10/12 13:54:08
                                                  because recognizing those rights would prevent the regime - MizzouAstro MU - 10/12 13:55:14
               When you actually take the time to learn it - ummmm MU - 10/12 13:01:17
                    If you have to 'take the time to learn it', that would - JeffB MU - 10/12 13:15:53
                         It is patently self-evident. Inherently, people act in - ummmm MU - 10/12 13:19:21
                              Not so sure about patently self-evident.... - JeffB MU - 10/12 13:36:09
                                   Lions and mosquitos have their own nature. - ummmm MU - 10/12 13:39:00
                                        Newsworthy, largely because they are against the law & - JeffB MU - 10/12 13:51:56
                                             Goddamn - pickle MU - 10/12 14:04:20
                                   Governments like a virus or plague does not - TigerMatt MU - 10/12 13:38:28
                                        What about the right to life of an unborn human being? - JeffB MU - 10/12 13:56:06
                                             A clump of human tissue is no different whether it is - TigerMatt MU - 10/12 14:03:34
                                                  He or she is a human being, not merely a clump of tissues, - JeffB MU - 10/12 14:38:29
                                                       Any cell is living. I can scrape off cheek cells and - TigerMatt MU - 10/12 15:11:35
                    Agreed. It's simple and non-controversial - pickle MU - 10/12 13:04:27
                         i don't think so - MizzouAstro MU - 10/12 13:22:39
                              I could be wrong - pickle MU - 10/12 13:26:25
                                   many (most) do - MizzouAstro MU - 10/12 13:31:23
                                        RE: many (most) do - pickle MU - 10/12 13:36:41
                                             I'm struggling to make the connection with that one to my - MizzouAstro MU - 10/12 13:38:35
                                                  Subservience to "the common good" (nm) - pickle MU - 10/12 14:10:38
                                                       still not seeing it(nm) - MizzouAstro MU - 10/12 14:14:12
          Life, liberty, property. (nm) - ummmm MU - 10/12 12:29:43
               Are any other animals entitled to those rights? (nm) - TigerJackSwartz MU - 10/12 13:07:44
                    No. Other animals have their own nature - ummmm MU - 10/12 13:08:28
                         What makes humans entitled to natural rights and other - TigerJackSwartz MU - 10/12 13:13:03
                              The human's ability to reason and contemplate his own - ummmm MU - 10/12 13:17:47
                                   does a disabled human, with no ability to reason and - TigerJackSwartz MU - 10/12 13:21:19
                                        Yes. Of course. (nm) - ummmm MU - 10/12 13:21:39
                                             But you said what makes humans entitled to natural - TigerJackSwartz MU - 10/12 13:24:43
                                                  As in, the natural man. - ummmm MU - 10/12 13:25:33
                                                       If every single person was mentally disabled like in your - ummmm MU - 10/12 13:29:15
                                                            high five (nm) - TigerJackSwartz MU - 10/12 13:45:25
                                                                 High five. (nm) - ummmm MU - 10/12 16:07:33
                         Aren't humans animals?(nm) - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 10/12 13:09:27
                              Yes. Humans are animals. - ummmm MU - 10/12 13:12:49
                                   Do we have the right to kill animals? - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 10/12 13:15:26
                                        The better way to put it, is to say that killing animals - ummmm MU - 10/12 13:21:09
                                             ok so animals don't have a right to life - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 10/12 13:25:33
                                                  Animals do not have a similar right to life as humans, since - ummmm MU - 10/12 13:27:25
                                                       where is the cutoff from human nature to animal nature? - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 10/12 13:32:38
                                                            Do we have any records on neanderthals ability to reason - ummmm MU - 10/12 13:36:21
                                                                 yes there is ample evidence, also are you saying the - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 10/12 13:40:50
                                                                      RE: yes there is ample evidence, also are you saying the - ummmm MU - 10/12 16:07:57
                                        RE: Do we have the right to kill animals? - pickle MU - 10/12 13:18:34
                                             So is your answer "no", humans don't have the right - TigerJackSwartz MU - 10/12 13:20:27
                                                  Huh? The question was do animals have the right to life - pickle MU - 10/12 13:33:55
               ok I get that you have a right to live, but what do - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 10/12 12:31:51
                    RE: ok I get that you have a right to live, but what do - ummmm MU - 10/12 12:33:59
                         what about land? that hasn't been created by any man - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 10/12 12:42:57
                              Land is a form of property. - ummmm MU - 10/12 12:48:22
                                   so was the US Empire justified in its' acquisition of land? - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 10/12 13:08:35
                                        There are a few issues at play in your post. - ummmm MU - 10/12 13:11:35
                                             how big is a homestead? (nm) - TigerJackSwartz MU - 10/12 13:15:10
                                                  As big as the person can put to use and manage. - ummmm MU - 10/12 13:20:12
                                                       who determines what a person can use and manage - TigerJackSwartz MU - 10/12 13:22:16
                                                            That person, and others who attempt to homestead land - ummmm MU - 10/12 13:24:54
                                                                 What happens if multiple parties claim first use - DC Jayhawk KU - 10/12 13:31:14
                                                                      They'll have to agree on an arbiter, or they will be stuck - ummmm MU - 10/12 13:35:26
                                                                           For some, the incentive is for constant dispute to exist. - DC Jayhawk KU - 10/12 13:39:42
                                                                                Well, to add to your hypothetical, there is a chance the - ummmm MU - 10/12 16:07:01
                                                                 Can one fence off a million unclaimed acres, to raise - TigerJackSwartz MU - 10/12 13:28:05
                                                                      Sure. Good luck to that person in - ummmm MU - 10/12 13:30:03




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