Welcome Guest

What about these Scripture passages?:

Posted on: April 10, 2020 at 12:10:51 CT
JeffB MU
Posts:
65966
Member For:
20.60 yrs
Level:
User
M.O.B. Votes:
0
What Does the Bible Have to Say?

Tim Staples: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/mortal-and-venial-sin

Matt. 5:19:

Whoever then relaxes (breaks) one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Our Lord here teaches that there are “least commandments” a person can break and even teach others to do so yet still remain “in the kingdom of heaven.” That is both a good definition of venial sin and perfectly in line with paragraph 1863 of the Catechism. Then, Jesus goes on to warn us in no uncertain terms that there are other sins that will take us to hell—if we do not repent, of course. For example, in Matt. 5: 22, Jesus says, “… whoever says ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire.” In verses 28-29, he says:

But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.

Clearly Jesus teaches there are some sins that will separate us from God for all eternity and some that will not–mortal and venial sin.

Matt. 12:32:

And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come (Matthew 12:32, emphasis added).

This statement of our Lord implies there are at least some sins that can be forgiven in the next life and some that cannot to a people who already believed it to be so. That sounds awful Catholic, doesn’t it?

II Maccabees 12:39-46, which was written ca. 125 BC, gives us an excellent historical backdrop that can shed light on the importance of our Lord’s words in Matt. 12:32. As the story goes, Judas Maccabeus and his army collected the bodies of some fallen comrades killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin.

Therefore, Judas and his men turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection… and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

Whether one accepts the canonicity of I and II Maccabees really doesn’t matter. Whether a person accepts the inspiration of these books or not does not change the fact that they give us crucial information about the faith and practice of the Jews shortly before the time of Christ from a purely historical perspective. The Jews believed there were some sins that could be forgiven in the next life (analogous to what Catholics call venial sins), and that there were some sins that could not be so forgiven (analogous to what Catholics call mortal sins). That’s the historical record.

Some may argue at this point that this text only mentions some sins can be forgiven in the next life, it never says anything about any sins being unforgiveable. And that is true. However, we also know that at least some Jews of the more orthodox bent believed in a state of separation from God, or hell, where sins cannot be forgiven as well. Jesus himself speaks of this in multiple texts of the New Testament, for example, in Mark 9:47-48:

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

In the latter portion of that text Jesus actually quotes Isaiah 66:24 from the Old Testament as alluding to the existence of hell. And he was not saying anything novel or revolutionary here. According to the Talmud, and many Jewish writings before the time of Christ, as well as Orthodox Jewish teaching today, the Jewish faith has included a belief in a place of eternal punishment for the damned for well over 2,000 years. Moreover, among the Old Testament passages used historically by Jewish scholars to this end, Isaiah 66:24 is one of the most common.

Most importantly, we have to acknowledge that this is the faith in which Jesus and the apostles were raised. They would have been raised to believe there were some sins that can be forgiven in the next life and some sins that cannot be. And it is in this context Jesus declares this to be so in the New Testament, as we saw from Matt. 12:32 above.

I John 5:16-18:

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin that is not a deadly sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not deadly. There is sin which is deadly; I do not say one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not deadly. We know that anyone born of God does not sin, but He who is born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Three points:

1. These verses cannot be any plainer that there is such a thing as “deadly sin” and “sin which is not deadly.” That is precisely what the Church means by mortal (sin unto death) and venial (sin not unto death) sin.

2. St. John distinguishes the effects of mortal and venial sin as well. Members of the Body of Christ can pray for someone who commits venial sin (sin “which is not deadly”) and “life” (Gr. – zo-ay, or the divine life of God) and healing can be communicated to him through that prayer. But when it comes to “deadly sin,” St. John tells us not to “pray for that.” This is not meant to say we should not pray for a person in this state of sin at all. Scripture is very clear that we should pray for “all men” in I Tim. 2:1-2. The context seems to indicate that he is referring to praying that God “give [the wounded member of Christ] life” directly through that prayer. Divine life and healing can only come through members of the Body of Christ to other members in a direct way if the person being prayed for is in union with the Body of Christ. For mortal sin, one can only pray that God would grant the grace of repentance to the sinner so that they may be restored to communion with the Body of Christ through the sacrament of confession.

To understand this better, consider the analogy St. Paul uses for the people of God in I Corinthians 12:12-27—the analogy of the physical body of a human being. St. Paul tells us we are all members of “the Body of Christ.” A wounded finger that is still attached to its host body can be healed organically by the rest of the body. That kind of wound is analogous to the effect of venial sin. A severed finger, however, cannot be healed by the rest of the body because it is no longer attached to the body. That kind of wound is analogous to the effect of mortal sin. So it is in the Body of Christ.

3. Just after distinguishing between mortal (deadly) and venial (non-deadly) sins, St. John says “anyone born of God does not sin.” We know St. John could not be referring to all sin here because he already told us in I John 1:8: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” Christians sin. It is clear from the context that St. John is referring to mortal sin here. If we sin mortally, we are cut off from the Body of Christ and are no longer in union with God. In that sense, the one who is in union with God cannot sin mortally. This is yet another clear distinction between mortal and venial sins in this text.

Mortal Sin Lists

We’ve already seen examples of “venial sins” in I John 5:16 and Matt. 5:19, but when it comes to mortal sin in Scripture, there are actually multiple lists of deadly or “mortal” sins in various places in Sacred Scripture. Our Lord himself provides us with several of them in Matthew 15:18-20, Revelation 21:8 and 22:15. St. Paul gives us the rest in Ephesians 5:3-7, Colossians 3:5-6, Galatians 5:19-21, and I Corinthians 6:9-11.

Any one of these biblical texts makes very clear that the biblical data is clearly in favor of mortal sins, but for brevity’s sake I will cite just one of them (Eph. 5:3-6):

But immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is fitting among saints. Let there be no filthiness, nor levity, which are not fitting; but instead let there be thanksgiving. Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure man, or one who is covetous (than is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not associate with them…

According to St. Paul, no matter how “born again,” “saved,” or whatever you think you are, if you commit these sins and you do not repent, you will not go to heaven. That is the essence of what “mortal sin” means.

Related
Report Message

Please explain why this message is being reported.

REPLY

Handle:
Password:
Subject:

MESSAGE THREAD

Trump with a beautiful Easter message and a Pastor - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 11:30:03
     if trump really believes is it from love or fear of God? - miz_zou MU - 4/10 12:07:25
          I don't know anyone who believes in God based on fear of God - Spanky KU - 4/10 12:14:49
               Are the godless living in fear of a invisible enemy? - Savage KC - 4/10 12:25:00
                    Likely not.. they are merely living in ignorance(nm) - Spanky KU - 4/10 13:37:26
                    RE: Are the godless living in fear of an invisible enemy? - Savage KC - 4/10 12:30:23
               Absolutely(nm) - miz_zou MU - 4/10 12:17:15
                    an example, please? - Spanky KU - 4/10 12:24:47
                         Love it when you pretend to know scripture because you can - miz_zou MU - 4/10 12:32:29
                              No need to look up your attempt at depth - Spanky KU - 4/10 13:36:27
          Judging someone's heart is beyond our pay grade. - JeffB MU - 4/10 12:13:16
               You bet - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 12:15:26
          As you know, only God can judge the heart - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 12:09:44
     If there is one thing republigistians love - JG MU - 4/10 11:46:23
          what are libs hypocritical about? Can't wait to hear this(nm) - tigerNkc MU - 4/10 12:05:38
          Most deaths are in NYC. Caused by two dems. - RHAYWORTH MU - 4/10 12:04:15
               Have you met SuxJohnson? He’s an angry, gay millennial. - Emoji Man MSU - 4/10 12:27:00
               There is some real stupid here but you are in the Top 5. - TexJohnson MU - 4/10 12:19:28
                    I'm sorry the truth offends you. - RHAYWORTH MU - 4/10 13:02:53
          and death of the marginalized(nm) - Th8tnTiger MU - 4/10 11:57:50
          👽✈️🚶🏻‍♂️🌋☠️👻 - Emoji Man MSU - 4/10 11:51:59
               You know this tale revolves around a volcano, right? (nm) - Newcatbirdseat MU - 4/10 11:56:31
                    Oh shlt. I’m out of practice. My sincerest apologies to the - Emoji Man MSU - 4/10 12:00:17
                         L. Ron absolves you of your sins (nm) - mu7176grad MU - 4/10 12:04:12
     Don is such an example of a Godly man. - TexJohnson MU - 4/10 11:37:09
          King David killed a man and committed adultry but was God's - TigerFan92 MU - 4/10 12:02:57
               Don't leave out Moses and Paul(Saul of Tarshish), murderers - MizzouTigerz MU - 4/10 12:21:04
                    Saul was ruthless in his persecution of the followers of - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 12:27:11
               you know that’s all bull****, don’t you? (nm) - pickle MU - 4/10 12:16:05
          And yet millennials think the muzz are really nice, - hokie VT - 4/10 11:53:41
               IKR. They’d throw my little gay buddy, Sux, off a building. - Emoji Man MSU - 4/10 12:03:01
               Some of the most kind and loving and devout I've ever know - raskolnikov MU - 4/10 11:57:21
                    Have you ever been at any kind of gathering with them? Can - Emoji Man MSU - 4/10 12:06:41
                         Sure I have - raskolnikov MU - 4/10 12:18:27
                              I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his - MizzouTigerz MU - 4/10 13:05:25
                              KKK is not a sect of Christianity. - MizzouTigerz MU - 4/10 12:58:37
                              Perfect. Thank you. - Emoji Man MSU - 4/10 12:23:16
               your identity politics are hogwash (nm) - ashtray UF - 4/10 11:57:18
                    that’s collectivism and ignorance for you (nm) - pickle MU - 4/10 11:59:02
                         he and rask are so similar it's fascinating - ashtray UF - 4/10 12:01:39
                              RE: he and rask are so similar it's fascinating - pickle MU - 4/10 12:05:58
          King David committed adultery and murder, yet Our Lord - JeffB MU - 4/10 11:48:55
               That was the Jew's God who did that - raskolnikov MU - 4/10 11:55:32
                    The One True God is the same God. He called the Jews - JeffB MU - 4/10 11:58:10
                         RE: The One True God is the same God. He called the Jews - raskolnikov MU - 4/10 12:03:35
                         spoiler - pickle MU - 4/10 11:59:27
                              A priest once related how he would occasionally ride with - JeffB MU - 4/10 12:07:12
                                   that's dumb (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 4/10 13:10:03
                                   that’s pretty stupid - pickle MU - 4/10 12:14:53
                              So sayeth pickle the all-knowing (nm) - redngray MU - 4/10 12:03:47
                                   feel free to prove there is (nm) - pickle MU - 4/10 12:15:13
                                        RE: feel free to prove there is (nm) - redngray MU - 4/10 13:27:57
               your lord, you mean (nm) - pickle MU - 4/10 11:53:49
                    He's your Lord as well, whether you reject Him or not. He - JeffB MU - 4/10 11:59:34
                         nope. that’s not how it works, Jeff (nm) - pickle MU - 4/10 12:14:01
                              Truth is not contingent upon your acceptance or approval. (nm) - JeffB MU - 4/10 12:15:00
                                   you are confusing faith for truth, Jeff - pickle MU - 4/10 12:17:49
                                        Look in the mirror. (nm) - JeffB MU - 4/10 12:26:18
                                             why? (nm) - pickle MU - 4/10 12:32:13
                                                  You are confusing your beliefs over against the truth. - JeffB MU - 4/10 12:49:56
                                                       not at all, Jeff (nm) - pickle MU - 4/10 12:51:47
                         wrong Lord - ashtray UF - 4/10 12:05:01
               As the old saying goes, I am not a Christian because I am - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 11:50:02
                    I can identify with Churchill who replied to a woman who - JeffB MU - 4/10 11:52:35
                         Churchill was a funny dude(nm) - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 11:53:24
          If Godly men embrace Venal Sins, then YEAH !!(nm) - raskolnikov MU - 4/10 11:46:49
               There is no such thing as venal sin - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 11:49:13
                    My bad - I was wrong(nm) - raskolnikov MU - 4/10 12:12:56
                         Happens to me several times a day(nm) - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 12:23:29
                    Oh gosh, so your obfuscation of the Judaic Tradition is - raskolnikov MU - 4/10 12:00:10
                         Judism is a WORKS based religion - tigerinhogtown STL - 4/10 12:08:56
                         There is simply no Scripture evidence of that - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 12:03:19
                              Torah is the Bible friend - raskolnikov MU - 4/10 12:07:13
                                   What about Jesus was devout? He taught 2 thing were - tigerinhogtown STL - 4/10 12:14:05
                                        That is one interpretation - raskolnikov MU - 4/10 12:26:56
                                             That is simply not true rask - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 12:30:34
                                   The Torah has no record of venial vs. mortal sins - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 12:08:10
                    Mortal and Venial Sin? - by Tim Staples... - JeffB MU - 4/10 11:51:17
                         I have and reject the premise based on the Word of God - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 11:56:11
                              What about these Scripture passages?: - JeffB MU - 4/10 12:10:51
                                   I can sum in up in this passage - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 12:14:09
                                        Luther would be proud. The emphesis, taking a passage - Nohawks KC - 4/10 12:36:40
                                             Most don't draw such distinctions between sins - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 12:40:06
                                                  OK, thats fair I guess. I always like to draw out - Nohawks KC - 4/10 12:42:49
                                                       Or as my father used to say all the time - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 12:44:43
                         show me one by Jesus, or Paul, or Peter(nm) - tigerinhogtown STL - 4/10 11:53:28
                         It is a Catholic concept - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 11:52:27
                              To say anything is a "Catholic Concept" is to say - Nohawks KC - 4/10 12:40:18
                                   I agree Protestant stuff is too often man made - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 12:43:12
                                        We've had this discussion and its all good - Nohawks KC - 4/10 12:51:15
                                             Lutherans don't consider themselves protestants - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 12:53:09
                                                  Obviously you're not a Missouri Synod Luthern then - Nohawks KC - 4/10 12:57:52
                                                       I actually am - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 13:02:32
                              All Christian religions are offshoots of Catholicism. Even - Emoji Man MSU - 4/10 11:55:21
                              fwiw, Our Lord founded the Catholic Church. It is His Church - JeffB MU - 4/10 11:55:16
                                   And over time, they have allowed tradition to be on par - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 11:59:29
                                        RE: And over time, they have allowed tradition to b - Nohawks KC - 4/10 12:46:37
                                             I disagree - but it's actually not acceptance - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 12:51:05
                                                  Of course I believe in that - Nohawks KC - 4/10 12:54:36
                                                       Faith without works is indeed dead - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 12:59:38
                              Did you read Tim Staples discussion of it using biblical - JeffB MU - 4/10 11:53:20
                                   one sin is worse than another only in the eyes of man - tigerinhogtown STL - 4/10 12:01:17
                                        In my reading of Scripture this is indeed the truth - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 12:04:36
          This^^(nm) - Th8tnTiger MU - 4/10 11:45:36
          This is the future of our country. Start learning Mandarin. - Emoji Man MSU - 4/10 11:41:42
               Better that than the mess you boomers have led us into. - TexJohnson MU - 4/10 11:45:53
                    You make it sound like boomer has a bad connotation, like - tigerNkc MU - 4/10 11:53:30
                    by all means, compare away (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 4/10 11:52:36
                    what exactly do you want me to compare?(nm) - tigerinhogtown STL - 4/10 11:49:04
                    I dunno, Sux. In many Muslim countries they’d be throwing - Emoji Man MSU - 4/10 11:48:34
                    Who is a boomer? - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 11:47:07
          So what is an example of a Godly man? - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 11:38:37
               God uses sinners. My pastor would say David was sinner - TexJohnson MU - 4/10 11:44:03
                    Jesus had sin - raskolnikov MU - 4/10 11:49:09
                         he was also fully God and sin and God can't be in the same - tigerinhogtown STL - 4/10 11:51:00
                              RE: he was also fully God and sin and God can't be in the same - raskolnikov MU - 4/10 12:28:52
                              Jesus lived a perfect life yet took the sins of the world - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 11:53:01
                                   Why ? - raskolnikov MU - 4/10 12:34:09
                                        The Scapegoat was the forerunner example of the Christ - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 12:36:02
                                   but I can now (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 4/10 12:23:50
                                        How so?(nm) - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 12:24:18
                                             I can pay the price. I can pay eternally. besides, - 90Tiger STL - 4/10 12:25:42
                                                  Scripture says the wages of sin is death - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 12:33:24
                                                       i "will suffer the consequences" - that's what I should have - 90Tiger STL - 4/10 13:00:12
                                                            OK 90 - that is indeed your choice - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 13:01:32
                    David was an a**hole - that's for sure - tigerinhogtown STL - 4/10 11:46:27
                         there are quite a number of TB "davids" (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 4/10 11:47:44
                    Sorry bro, but it’s Adam & Eve. Not Adam & Steve. - Emoji Man MSU - 4/10 11:46:14
                         No one could be as much a homophobe as you and not be gay - TexJohnson MU - 4/10 11:47:41
                    Then perhaps Trump is such a man - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 11:46:03
                    LOL. - Newcatbirdseat MU - 4/10 11:44:57
     While rejecting women and children refugees - Th8tnTiger MU - 4/10 11:34:38
          huh...I would have sworn this is rags(nm) - dangertim MU - 4/10 12:15:23
               it - Ferg STL - 4/10 12:19:52
               nope - Ragnar Danneskjold MU - 4/10 12:18:15
          He seems to like women and children. Sorry fer yer TDS(nm) - TigerFan92 MU - 4/10 12:03:50
          I prefer MulletGeorge - Ferg STL - 4/10 11:46:35
          oh no, not women and children refugees. A bridge too far(nm) - DollarSigns MU - 4/10 11:44:13
          Paul was a Roman, he got citizenship legally(nm) - tigerinhogtown STL - 4/10 11:42:32
          The state isn't a person, fyi. On the political aspect of - 90Tiger STL - 4/10 11:37:28
          Why would Jesus approve of illegal activity or activity that - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 11:36:52
               RE: Why would Jesus approve of illegal activity or activity that - mizzoumurfkc KC - 4/10 11:46:05
                    notice something strange here... - tigerNkc MU - 4/10 11:56:27
                         Yes! I Notice - mizzoumurfkc KC - 4/10 12:02:09
               lol, i'm pretty sure Jesus would be an open borders - 90Tiger STL - 4/10 11:38:57
                    Please explain how border enforcement is unjust. - DHighlander NWMSU - 4/10 11:47:48
                         faulty and illogical analogy (nm) - pickle MU - 4/10 12:00:05
                         terrible analogy - ashtray UF - 4/10 11:54:50
                              And secure borders protect our country. Apt analogy for - DHighlander NWMSU - 4/10 12:03:15
                                   that’s nowhere in the constitution - pickle MU - 4/10 12:39:18
                                   now you're doubling down on being incorrect - ashtray UF - 4/10 12:10:21
                         i didn't claim it was "unjust", I claimed I felt jesus - 90Tiger STL - 4/10 11:49:25
                    Not really - MIZ45 MU - 4/10 11:47:27
                    Jesus was down with legal immigration. - Emoji Man MSU - 4/10 11:44:46
                    His point was that just laws are to be followed - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 11:40:13
                         all laws? so if it is lawful to beat women or whatever, jesu - 90Tiger STL - 4/10 11:46:51
                              I said all just laws - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 11:51:55
                                   so it's your claim that jesus would find border control - 90Tiger STL - 4/10 11:54:26
                                        Roman citizenship was a huge deal at the time of Christ - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 12:02:17
                                             you mean with your interpretation of the Bible - ashtray UF - 4/10 12:08:34
                                                  yup (nm) - 90Tiger STL - 4/10 12:24:27
                         when did he say immigration laws are just? (nm) - ashtray UF - 4/10 11:41:10
                              He did not ever say that - 4TigersinMichigan MU - 4/10 11:44:53




©2024 Fanboards L.L.C. — Our Privacy Policy   About Tigerboard