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Whoa. OK, I'll do one hypo with you.

Posted on: April 21, 2012 at 12:19:26 CT

McMuffin MU

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1994. Norm's team was a #1 seed. That's as close, I guess, as you can come to being able to reasonably argue he "should" have made the Final Four then. Never mind that every year at least some and in some cases many or all #1 seeds don't make the Final Four due to all the upsets that always happen in the Big Dance.

Bottom line, Norm had a #1 seed but was shipped west. His team had a 25-3 record in the regular season. Given that the other #1 seeds as I recall were Arkansas (the overall #1), Duke and Purdue, I really doubt that Norm winning one more regular season game to get to 26-2 vs 25-3 would have changed things much, in terms of gettin us the Midwest #1 rather than West or something. And even still, either way he's a #1 seed.

So we get shipped West as the #1 and wind up losing handily to #2 seed Arizona in the Elite Eight. If you are gonna be a purist and look at it from a seeding standpoint, you would say that Norm flubbed that game because he was the #1 seed and Arizona was not. If you are a realistic person or if you were there and saw the heavily pro-Arizona crowd that made it a home game for them, or if you realize that Arizona had future NBA regulars in its backcourt whereas Mizzou did not, you might be more inclined to say Norm did an overachieving, great coaching job just to get his team that high seed that year, rather than that he "choked away a Final Four" because his high seeded team didn't get there.

Bottom line, to me, is the question you posed in your post above is a *perfect* example of why people put too much emphasis on the Big Dance in judging programs and coaches and why looking at it alone is not always the best barometer.

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REPLY

MESSAGE THREAD

Mizzou is 3rd in SEC in all-time NCAA tourney appearances - McMuffin MU - 4/20 15:14:11

SEC Basketball....a tradition since 2012 - coolbean MU - 4/21 12:45:09

RE: SEC Basketball....a tradition since 2012 - buddha22 MU - 4/21 19:19:17

6 national titles and 12 final fours in the last 18 years, - AndyTiger MU

- 4/21 14:24:10

RE: 6 national titles and 12 final fours in the last 18 years, - MizzouBuickFan MU - 4/21 16:47:16

haha - tjwheeler UI - 4/21 14:02:49

Your love for bashing MU and the big 12 reeks of beaker - tigerboardnoob MU - 4/21 13:01:45

RE: Mizzou is 3rd in SEC in all-time NCAA tourney appearances - MUinIL MU - 4/20 18:57:52

Which goes to show what we already know - McMuffin MU - 4/20 21:50:31

How many times should Norm have made it to - alwaysright MU - 4/21 10:40:26

RE: How many times should Norm have made it to - sarasotatiger MU - 4/21 15:00:23

Whoa. OK, I'll do one hypo with you. - McMuffin MU - 4/21 12:19:26

I didn't say that scenario would improve your - alwaysright MU - 4/22 08:24:16

RE: Which goes to show what we already know - MUinIL MU - 4/21 09:27:32

No sh**. But at the same time I've come to realize - McMuffin MU - 4/21 12:22:28

RE: No sh**. But at the same time I've come to realize - MUinIL MU - 4/21 14:56:08

RE: No sh**. But at the same time I've come to realize - McMuffin MU - 4/21 17:04:33

The Big XII is and will be a better basketball conference. - 90183 MU - 4/20 16:36:34

used to be true, won't be anymore - AndyTiger MU

- 4/21 14:33:00

LOL - tjwheeler UI - 4/21 14:55:08

OU, OSU, and TT are in major decline. KSU just lost their - AndyTiger MU

- 4/21 15:31:41

Remind me again what the SEC did in the tourney other - tjwheeler UI - 4/21 15:34:41

To be honest, has the big xii done much outside of ku? - lqf2b8 MU - 4/22 09:06:18

^^^^^^^This is Bulls&it!^^^^^^^^^^ nm - thytiger MU - 4/21 10:04:46

Again, check out the incoming talent in each league - 90183 MU - 4/21 13:19:04

I'll post this again - XRob MU - 4/21 08:27:20

Take a look at the talent coming into each conference - 90183 MU - 4/21 12:53:23

no need to - XRob MU - 4/21 13:47:31

How is that any different than ku top program, Texas is very - tiger4real MU - 4/20 21:02:24

We will not care anymore about the big 12 in 4 months (nm) - tigger2118 MU - 4/21 16:40:23

mizzou top tier?? how is a perennial top 3-6 program in the - BabyJay KU - 4/21 12:39:58

Roll Tide! Looks like you do like the SEC!! (NM) - tigger2118 MU - 4/21 16:41:49

We're chickenhawks, see? Will you help me choke my - Henry Hawk KU - 4/21 15:55:59

Have you seen the guy in the hat next to Dickie V? - MarineinMO USMC - 4/21 12:53:44

I have got to get one of those!!nm - BabyJay KU - 4/21 13:01:14

save your money. it just leads to this - MarineinMO USMC - 4/21 13:18:15

The Big 12 wont be around much longer. - tigerboardnoob MU - 4/20 19:44:28

I would not be so confident about the Big XII's demise - 90183 MU - 4/21 13:27:43

^^^^^^^^This is not^^^^^^^^ nm - thytiger MU - 4/21 10:07:14

sec is better in basketball too. B12 ain't s#!t - crudup 99 - 4/20 17:37:19

Are we discussing today - or yesterday?(nm) - GA Tiger MU - 4/20 18:47:23

Today and yesterday and tomorrow - crudup 99 - 4/20 21:12:07

If they were one team conferences, you'd be correct. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 21:27:56

Really? - crudup 99 - 4/21 01:40:00

And, I repeat. - tjwheeler UI - 4/21 09:59:07

I'm not talking about one team - crudup 99 - 4/21 11:07:11

Three. - tjwheeler UI - 4/21 12:18:51

UK isn't > ku? And how many - crudup 99 - 4/22 06:31:19

Once again. - tjwheeler UI - 4/22 15:08:24

RE: Once again. - crudup 99 - 4/22 15:22:10

Well, tough guy. - tjwheeler UI - 4/22 15:32:23

So, here's the question: - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 17:42:59

Yes dumbo. We just increase the difference - crudup 99 - 4/20 17:49:14

"Sec is stronger with. But they were stronger anyway." - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 17:53:07

I've said it before. I think it was a couple years ago... - BadAsh SEC - 4/20 19:50:53

Well, then you might be the only one. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 20:49:31

True, not many agreed with me at the time, and people - BadAsh SEC - 4/20 22:16:26

Both conferences are very similar. - BadAsh SEC - 4/20 17:15:14

Depends on the criteria. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 16:43:17

I'm going to generally agree with this. - Evenflow MU - 4/20 16:50:10

As you should be jacked. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 16:52:58

Don't worry, TCU is going to really help the Big 12. (nm) - RememberQuantrill MU

- 4/20 16:44:09

While TCU is crap... - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 16:48:58

Of those bottom teams, in each conference, who do you - BadAsh SEC - 4/20 17:17:40

Good question. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 17:23:30

Georgia and Miss State have made the Big Dance lately - McMuffin MU - 4/20 16:51:24

I actually thought Georgia had things going 2 yrs ago. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 16:56:40

Yep. It's kind of a good spot for us b/c Kentucky will - McMuffin MU - 4/20 16:43:05

It is probably optimistic towards the Big 12 to say there is - FIJItiger MU

- 4/20 16:40:04

Based on what? Opinion? Nm - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 16:38:42

SEC Totals: - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 15:23:30

Ole Miss is a really good basketball program(nm) - high.nrg STL - 4/20 16:18:49

Ole Miss - FIJItiger MU

- 4/20 16:29:51

Ansu Sesay missed back to back FT's the play before Bryce - CoolBreeze22 MU - 4/20 16:41:53

South Carolina with B.J. McKie had it even worse - upset by - McMuffin MU - 4/20 16:46:15

don't jinx us, there's still next yr to be played!!!! :)nm - CoolBreeze22 MU - 4/20 16:56:12

I've only seen their little arena on TV. - Evenflow MU - 4/20 16:35:25

Aside from Arkansas that applies to the whole SEC West. (nm) - McMuffin MU - 4/20 16:37:34

RE: Ole Miss - McMuffin MU - 4/20 16:33:05

RE: Ole Miss is a really good basketball program(nm) - McMuffin MU - 4/20 16:26:47

So is Northwestern. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 16:26:06

Almost got it this year...almost(nm) - high.nrg STL - 4/20 16:34:52

I couldn't be happier that they failed. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 16:49:38

They usually 'Miss' the basket. - Hamdogg KC - 4/20 16:22:26

Snap(nm) - high.nrg STL - 4/20 16:24:40

By the way I imagine Illinois would be second? Do y'all - McMuffin MU - 4/20 15:54:08

RE: By the way I imagine Illinois would be second? Do y'all - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 15:57:44

69 total NCAA tourney games, 29 appearances (nm) - FIJItiger MU

- 4/20 15:56:42

Another way to look at it, that combines both - FIJItiger MU

- 4/20 15:33:22

Mizzou as we know is a statistical anomoly when it comes to - McMuffin MU - 4/20 15:49:43

I'd like to see those numbers over the last decade. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 15:36:01

RE: I'd like to see those numbers over the last decade. - FIJItiger MU

- 4/20 15:37:52

Will never catch UK but wont take long to blow past - tigerboardnoob MU - 4/20 15:26:16

^^^Thanks to Mike Anderson for our last four year Class * - MizzouBuickFan MU - 4/20 15:37:04

huh? - tigerboardnoob MU - 4/20 15:38:41

Our roster featured zero players not recruited by - FIJItiger MU

- 4/20 15:45:48

What thanks did he give to MU? - tigerboardnoob MU - 4/20 15:48:28

You replied to your question within your own post - FIJItiger MU

- 4/20 15:52:10

Because his players were tired of his shyt(nm) - tigerboardnoob MU - 4/20 15:55:01

That is why he deserves no thanks from MU fans? - FIJItiger MU

- 4/20 15:58:17

Did Norm bolt on MU? No, but the snake did - tigerboardnoob MU - 4/20 16:13:01

No, he got pushed out the door. To an extent - FIJItiger MU

- 4/20 16:17:16

Nobody is saying it negates the past - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 16:34:16

Well, here is the statement I am disagreeing with - FIJItiger MU

- 4/20 16:36:10

That's not mine, but I thank thanks and credit - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 16:37:33

He left you 6 seniors and a top 15 team. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 16:16:22

he didn't leave a top 15 team. - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 16:32:46

I'm guessing it's somewhere in between. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 16:39:47

Those veterans ha never done anything like that - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 16:42:11

Bwahaha a top 15 team? - tigerboardnoob MU - 4/20 16:19:09

He left you 6 seniors and a ton of starts. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 16:41:11

I actually ok with his point of view - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 16:01:43

The way he left was shameful - FIJItiger MU

- 4/20 16:05:43

Last impression>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>first impression - tigerboardnoob MU - 4/20 16:14:13

What about the 5 year period in between? (nm) - FIJItiger MU

- 4/20 16:19:40

What about it? I know what he did as a coach - tigerboardnoob MU - 4/20 16:22:38

Again, silly position - FIJItiger MU

- 4/20 16:27:32

He used those schools to fatten his wallet - tigerboardnoob MU - 4/20 16:30:14

Almost all coaches do that, just not as obviously - Bobk MU - 4/20 22:45:31

The key question is how long you have to give thanks - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 16:12:48

Until his players leave, imo. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 16:17:08

So you have no problem giving weber 3 more yrs of credit - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 16:30:16

He'll deserve some credit. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 16:50:26

So we will hear thank you coach weber in 2015 - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 16:56:05

I'm telling you right now. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 16:58:15

Was self thanked a lot those first couple years? Nm - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 17:01:22

I had no problem thanking him for leaving players. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 17:12:53

Was he thanked though? - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 17:30:25

Huh? You're asking if I sent him a thank you card? - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 17:33:55

I'm asking if Illinois fans in general were saying thanks - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 18:20:03

I can't speak for all Illini fans. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 20:45:07

Well you keep answering a different question over - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 21:00:45

No. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 21:34:03

I asked if self was thanks and you said "credit" over - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 21:49:59

That was the direct order of your questions. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 21:56:27

you're complicating the **** out of this - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 22:04:47

No. I answered every single ? of yours. - tjwheeler UI - 4/21 00:01:56

that's chalked wrong nm - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/21 09:02:27

Fine. - tjwheeler UI - 4/21 10:03:52

ok - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/21 12:06:09

No difference between giving Self credit and thanking him. - tjwheeler UI - 4/21 12:23:06

The words don't have the same meaning, sorry nm - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/21 12:29:06

What is this immense difference between credit/thanks? - tjwheeler UI - 4/21 12:36:31

they are very different - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/21 16:49:21

So, the great inquisition of 2012 is whether or not I've - tjwheeler UI - 4/21 19:18:45

double standard. It will be because of the new coach(nm) - tigerboardnoob MU - 4/20 16:32:09

No, it'll be both. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 16:52:12

Luckily for him, doesn't have to worry about that last part(nm) - FIJItiger MU

- 4/20 16:31:39

You and I both know that's not true. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 16:50:51

It only takes one bad hire - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 16:57:29

Or, it takes one good hire and we're right back to - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 20:50:11

And, unlike you and Fiji, I don't think Groce was a bad hire - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 16:58:57

I haven't said once I think he was a bad hire - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 17:00:28

Okay. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 17:14:03

Of course I would want it, but I haven't said it would - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 18:58:13

Why? These were Haiths players - tigerboardnoob MU - 4/20 16:20:59

You woudn't know who Kim English was, nor would - FIJItiger MU

- 4/20 16:24:04

He was already thanked for that. Very well - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 16:31:21

He gets credit for Pressey being at MU, yes - FIJItiger MU

- 4/20 16:34:04

I'm not saying no credit. I'm saying no thanks. To me - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 16:36:02

Fail, when you walk out on someone - tigerboardnoob MU - 4/20 16:28:38

Not true, but I guess if you say 'fail' what can I do (nm) - FIJItiger MU

- 4/20 16:32:43

RE: huh? - MizzouBuickFan MU - 4/20 15:42:26

he flirted every single year and got a raise every single - tigerboardnoob MU - 4/20 15:43:49

He left FH with 6 seniors. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 15:42:17

RE: He left FH with 6 seniors. - MizzouBuickFan MU - 4/20 15:43:00

Hopefully we catch and pass Arkansas - MIZtigerZOU MU - 4/20 15:25:25

I'd say in about 5 years (nm) - TigerNuts MU - 4/20 15:29:29

Arkansas hasn't had a Sweet 16 since 1996. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 15:28:43

Dont tell them any such thing, they still think they are - tigerboardnoob MU - 4/20 15:29:26

BJ Young was breastfeeding in 1994. - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 15:30:42

anything less is a disappointment(nm) - tigerboardnoob MU - 4/20 15:26:49

What are the totals for each SEC team? - tjwheeler UI - 4/20 15:17:14

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